1/3 3 way pot with overpair on flop where I can't have the nuts
100BB effective
UTG3 Open raise $10 20's-30's white guy TAG with a capital T
HJ (Hero) just calls with TT
BB calls 20's-30's black guy unknown to me
$30 minus rake
644r
BB ch
UTG3 b $15
I call
BB ch/r to $50
UTG f
Action on me
This is a spot where I have no idea what the right play is. Folding seems nitty, but how many streets can you call? What are the real natural bluffs other than 75/53? Is he really raising something like a gutshot, overcards, or a 6 in this spot? Neither of us is likely to have trips+ and I think that BB probably knows that. Stereotypes lead me to believe that he's more likely to be bluffing, but that's the only real info I have to go on. Are we supposed to just call and fold on the turn? It seems like we're going to be put to the test for our stack most of the time.
I didn't 3-bet pre b/c I thought the original raiser was on something like 88+, ATs+, AQ+, KQs. I'm doing pretty good against the open range, but I'm an underdog vs the 3-bet continuing range. I have to fold to a 4-bet, but maybe the extra folds are worth it.
Spoiler
I was just thinking that it's likely original raiser had 99-77 as he tank/folded on the flop. That might make it a better fold.
6 Replies
TAG with a capital T
I didn't 3-bet b/c I thought the original raiser was on something like 88+, ATs+, AQ+, KQs. I'm doing pretty good against the open range, but I'm an underdog vs the 3-bet continuing range. I have to fold to a 4-bet, but maybe the extra folds are worth it.
Your thinking is all over the place. Your first line made him sound like a nit against whom you were set-mining, but his opening range is maybe only just a little tighter than the average TAG, which makes your failure to 3-bet really bad, especially with players still left to act.
Assuming he reraises AA/KK, calls with AK/QQ, mostly folds KQs and sometimes folds JJ/AQo, I still like 3-betting with TT. The only reason here not to 3-bet someone who isn't a nit is a fear he that might 4-bet with hands like AK/AQ/AJs...which doesn't seem likely for this opponent.
Also, keep in mind that by calling preflop rather than 3-betting, you've just capped your range while allowing the raiser's range to remain uncapped...which contributed to the flop morass in which you found yourself 😀
I like a 3bet, but I get it.
I made the mistake of not 3betting TT the other night vs an EP raiser who will 4bet only w/ KK/AA. EP raises, I flat in CO, BB calls. Flop is 79T and BB has 86o. I lost basically the minimum ($85 after flop), but not 3betting really cost me. I would have won a little off the EP raiser and I don't think BB was calling a 3bet w/ 86o. Lesson learned.
As played, just fold.
I'm fine with preflop against a tight opener and no dead money.
I'm fine with calling the flop at this price to evaluate what he does on the turn.
Admittedly difficult spot when facing the check/raise. Most people don't overplay smaller overpairs here, but I guess some noobish players could. Otherwise, most just somehow have it. Lately I've also noticed that bigger overpairs show up here (even AA), like, all the time. So I mostly just lean to a nitty fold.
GcluelessNLnoobG
I know you heard this before, but for sure 3-bet this pre. BB almost a thousand has a 6x, if you want to continue set mining at that price fine, but future streets will be more expensive otherwise just fold -$25 hand and imagine in your mind the board came Q, Q, A to keep you off tilt 😀
I was curious what folks think of putting in a raise to the initial 1/2 pot bet on the flop, rather than calling here. Maybe making it $45.
Obviously in this particular instance, it wouldn't have worked becuase BB is likely strong, but in theory, would a raise to deny equity to overcards that the pre-flop raiser is just c-betting or that the BB overcalled with pre-flop be a reasonable play, or is that bad? You might get a bit of extra value from 99-77 as well and take control of the betting, allowing you to check it down rather than having to make tougher calls on the T or R.
This was just a thought that popped into my head while reading the hand history and now that I see nobody else mentioned the possibility I was hoping to learn why that would be a mistake here. Thanks!
You should 3bet TT versus the range you ascribe to the PFR. As played fold to x-r on the flop. I don't believe analysing the hand beyond this point is worthwhile since the BB is relatively uncapped. If you had 3bet preflop BB's range would be easier to navigate. The scenario where you 3bet preflop and BB cold-called, PFR also called and then BB x-raised flop would be more significant.
