Deep with AA against the king of the button clickers
$1/$2 game on a Saturday afternoon at Mohegan Sun
This is an exceptional table. There was a whale here opening ATC for a couple of hours, then he busted, and another whale immediately took his place. All of the other fish at the table bought in for the max or close to it, and now everyone is mega deep.
New Whale - I am giving reads on the new whale first as she is a factor in this hand. MABW who tries to see every flop and will chase every draw. She seems to tilt her opponents more than anyone else that I have ever seen. Earlier, she won a $900 pot off a decent reg with JTs vs 99 on 9QJJT and he threw a massive tantrum. We start the hand $650 eff with her.
Button Clicker - One of the strangest players I have encountered in these games. Early on, he played a ridiculous hand against the old whale where he checked back flop and then bet-3b turn with TPNK to lose a stack to the old whale’s TPGK. After that, he played a series of juiced, multiway pots against the old whale where the old whale would open $7 with ATC, the Button Clicker would click it to $12, and then everyone at the table would call. Button Clicker ran over the table in these pots and built up a stack of $550ish without many showdowns. Then, we played these two hands in consecutive orbits:
- Hero opens AQo (no c) UTG to $7. Three calls and Button Clicker clicks it to $20 on the button. The whale cold calls BB. Hero? We choose to 4b bluff to $70. Folds to Button Clicker who calls quickly and whale tank folds. Flop of 678cc and we check. Button clicker bets $100 and we fold. Whale laments that she folded 54s.
- Exactly one orbit later hero opens 55 UTG to $7. Four calls and Button Clicker clicks it to $17 on the button. The whale cold calls BB. Hero makes a joke, then calls. The whole table calls behind before an old man back-raises to $72. Button Clicker calls quickly, whale folds, hero briefly considers doing something crazy but makes a standard fold along with the others. Old man dark checks (lol) and Button Clicker checks back Q32 flop. Turn 9 goes small bet and call. River J goes xx and Button Clicker wins with KJo vs AKs.
The below hand happens less than a full orbit later.
AsAh
Button Clicker open limps, which he has been doing fairly often. Whale iso-raises to $10. Hero 3b to $35. Folds to Button Clicker who puts in the limp-CC. Whale completes.
Flop is Jc 6c 4d ($101 after rake and promo)
Checks to hero who cbets $40. Button Clicker immediately slides out a stack of $100. Whale tanks and counts out the call before pausing. Hero considers whether he needs to bet-fold if whale calls, but she folds. Hero calls.
Turn is Jc 6c 4d 9s ($301 after rake and promo)
Button Clicker very quickly double fists two stacks of red and bets $200 with around $200 back. Hero?
Do we have sigh-jam and GII versus this guy? Or is this a very easy fold? Also happy to receive feedback on the other two HHs, especially the AQo hand.
13 Replies
AQ I like the 4b. 55 I would limp call vs these whales.
I would ship turn with the AA.
GII
Your villain can't fold top pair. Thus, click it back on the flop and GII. As played, GII on the turn.
3bet bigger, you have a limper and the whale opened.
Do you have any post flops reads on BC (button clicker)?
Like the KJo call is complete spew preflop, but then BC never bluffs or even value bets post flop on Q329J. Kx is blocking straights, for bluffs and could maybe go for thin value vs. 88 or AK. Maybe he called turn to bluff some rivers, but then hit and decided not to bluff overpairs but just AK which he blocks. IMO turn call and river check back more implies he's no idea what's going on postflop.
And this kind of seems like normal 1-2 fish play, has no idea about hand values and how terrible the call is vs. a 3bet but is just doing it because lol "I haz two big cards".
Which leads to... Just because someone is random clicking it back preflop for $7 opens doesn't mean they are doing that with KJ on J64.
There aren't many bluffs, and just because you unblock Ac*c doesn't mean we need to never fold if V hasn't yet x/r draws or thin or even air.
Like 66/44 will often limp/call pre. ... and they'll assume they have the nuts here because the entire reason to limp/cold-call-3bet pre. is to hit a set and if he's even thinking about it at all then he might realize you don't have JJ as much as overpairs.
Then he might even have been thinking of limp/raising JJ but you 3bet so he called.
On the other side we are now requiring him to limp/cold-call-3bet with (presumably 2-9 or maybe T)) Ac*c (or even worse draws) and then understand that J high flops aren't that good for your 3bet range and so he should click it back as a bluff.
Which is all to say that I think the flop is much closer than anyone is saying and you need to think a lot about how this min. raise is often going to be for 460 more not just 60. If you are pretty sure he's doing it with AJ,66,44 and less sure he can have JJ (or slightly sure he can have real bluffs or KJ) then you have 50% on flop. But hand history would suggest to me that you have a lot less.
By the time we get to the turn I think you need to fold or shove, unless you have some amazing read that he's going to continue blasting off with like T7 or whatever.
3bet bigger, you have a limper and the whale opened.
Do you have any post flops reads on BC (button clicker)?
Like the KJo call is complete spew preflop, but then BC never bluffs or even value bets post flop on Q329J. Kx is blocking straights, for bluffs and could maybe go for thin value vs. 88 or AK. Maybe he called turn to bluff some rivers, but then hit and decided not to bluff overpairs but just AK which he blocks. IMO turn call and river check back more implies he's no idea what's going on po
Thanks for the detailed response.
I don't have a ton of postflop reads on BC, at least ones with showdowns. In the OP I refer to a hand where the BC flatted a whale's open with ATo and checked back A69. On the turn 8 it goes whale x, BC bet $20 into $21, whale xr $50, BC jam $120, whale tank call-off with AJo and win. In the few other relevant hands I wrote down, the whale was mostly blasting super-multiway pots with hands that never made it to showdown. I am sure he did some check-calling and check-folding too, but I wasn't paying close enough attention unfortunately.
I don't think he has a lot (if any) of low-equity bluffs, as the KJo hand indicates. On the flop, I was thinking he has a lot of JX that will play this way, as well as potentially AXcc and 4Xcc. When he continued the turn, I started to wonder if it was possible that he had a limp-reraise hand that chickened out preflop (e.g. KK/QQ/JJ) and just flatted? He had not pulled a LRR in-game though, to my knowledge...
I definitely did not feel great about calling flop versus this guy, and did not consider clicking it back at all, per another poster's suggestion. I agree that the turn is a shove or fold -- as I said, I don't think he has any T7, so there isn't any real benefit to calling, especially because his high-equity bluffs like A4cc, A9cc, maybe QTcc, etc. will be committed to calling the shove anyway.
EDIT: The other small-but-relevant postflop read is for the AQo HH. When the New Whale said she folded 54s, the BC said, "well, thanks for folding" which to me indicated that he had some kind of value hand, like TT or JJ.
AA hand played fine, now gii vs. this player.
wild. 2000 words about how this is the worst table you've ever seen, they overplay / dunno what they're doing only to approach villains like they are set mining nits in the actual hand. like lol at thinking about b/f or sighing in the actual hand. i think you can 3b bigger too if u want, but you should be absolutely thrilled to get this in, think u can 3b flop w/o Ac
First of all... AQo for a 4-bet is not a 'bluff' in this spot, its value.
Secondly... this is a no question stack off, either call down IP or gii yourself but you're 100% stacking off on a J-blank-blank flush draw no flush blocker.
wild. 2000 words about how this is the worst table you've ever seen, they overplay / dunno what they're doing only to approach villains like they are set mining nits in the actual hand. like lol at thinking about b/f or sighing in the actual hand. i think you can 3b bigger too if u want, but you should be absolutely thrilled to get this in, think u can 3b flop w/o Ac
This
This is clear example of when you should 3bet larger preflop as a pure exploit. Possibly as much as 10x, particularly as you're over 300bb ef versus the whale.
As played I don't mind the bet-call on the flop, although I'd prefer a larger c-bet. Check-shove turn.
wild. 2000 words about how this is the worst table you've ever seen, they overplay / dunno what they're doing only to approach villains like they are set mining nits in the actual hand. like lol at thinking about b/f or sighing in the actual hand. i think you can 3b bigger too if u want, but you should be absolutely thrilled to get this in, think u can 3b flop w/o Ac
Haha, fair enough, but in my defense I play in an extremely passive player pool and have to rub my eyes a little every time I see someone take an aggro line without the super nuts.
Here's the reveal:
Spoiler
We think for a little while and shove. Villain absolutely turbo-snaps it off. I ask, “Do you have a set?” and he doesn’t react. The river is an offsuit K, I show and he shows… QQ.
“I didn’t put you on aces,” he says before leaving. I am guessing he meant to LRR pre, got spooked by the 3b, but then overcorrected against the small-ish cbet and decided to just stack off 300bb on a low board. It feels like a punt, obviously, but it's also kind of a normal pre-flop cooler played in a strange way, I guess.
In hindsight, this might be kind of a standard “close your eyes and get it in" spot versus a spazzy fish, but it’s actually the biggest pot I have ever won thus far and I am happy to get some feedback on it. Thanks all!
Spoiler
FWIW
ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.3 P...
Holdem, Generic syntax
Board - Jc 6c 4d
PLAYER_1 AsAh
PLAYER_2 JJ,66,44,AJ,QQ,KK
26730 trials (exhaustive)
All-in Equity
[table=head]|Equity %|Wins Hi %|Ties Hi %|Wins Hi Count|Ties Hi Count|
AsAh|62.2671%|62.2671%|0.0000%|16644|0|
JJ,66,44,AJ,QQ,KK|37.7329%|37.7329%|0.0000%|10086|0|
[/table]
ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.3 P...
Holdem, Generic syntax
Board - Jc 6c 4d
PLAYER_1 AsAh
PLAYER_2 JJ,66,44,QQ,KK
20790 trials (exhaustive)
All-in Equity
[table=head]|Equity %|Wins Hi %|Ties Hi %|Wins Hi Count|Ties Hi Count|
AsAh|54.8052%|54.8052%|0.0000%|11394|0|
JJ,66,44,QQ,KK|45.1948%|45.1948%|0.0000%|9396|0|
[/table]
Grunch:
PRE - I'd raise 4x in this game, over the whale, with the btn-clicker limping, because why not? Let's build a pot against these wing-nuts.
FLOP - Seems like a pretty standard call. Not sure we'd ever want to 3B here.
TURN - I think we need to just get it in, when V fires $200 into $300 and leaves himself $200 back. God forbid he check-folds on a river club or over-card to the J.
As for the other two hands...
AQo - I'd have 4B bigger, say...$100, at least, and maybe even $120, because what the hell is he going to do? 5B jam? Okay, then we can fold. As played, the flop seems like a pretty standard fold.
55 - Since btn-clicker is raising ATC apparently, I might just limp-call with small and middling PP's, not open, because why build a pot when we're just set-mining?
