2-5: KK on action table

I would 4!. Maybe it has to be a shove. If you shove and take like 300 without show down, that is not such a bad result, but he should call with a real hand, like JJ/AK.

Flop, I might bet with straight draw and 2nd nut flush draw plus overpair and spr of like 2.5.

I would have 4-bet small.

AP flop check back is fine. I see turn was a misclick.

Call river. No value targets to raise.

I would only 4b if he's willing to 5b/jam lighter than normal - I mean in most live 2/5 games when someone 4bets it's AK+,KK+ or even just KK+. If he folds stuff like TT,JJ,QQ,AK,AQ it's a real disaster 4betting. I'd just call the river - trying to get Ah to fold out with a raise could be suicidal especially the way the hand has played out.

I think there is a time and place for not 4betting KK pre, but this spot (160bb deep late at night against an action player who plays higher stakes and might be tilted) is not one of them.

Think I would just call river. It's kind of hard for him to have a worse flush, since I would expect Jh to bet flop or turn with the OESFD. It's also certainly possible that he has a better hand. Certainly not going to fold here.

I like a 4b rip vs his massive sizing

As played, calling seems mandatory, not loving it but we beat some value most notably JhJx

I play 2-5 against a guy just like this in a game just like and it’s an autoshove preflop.

Shoving preflop looks weaker than 3-betting small. Plus 300 is not that bad compared to your expected win if it goes to a flop or even if he calls the shove, as you sometimes lose to AQ/TT etc.

Tough line regardless I'm going with flat. What is he going to call a re-raise with? An Ace most likely correct?! And if he jams your re-raise what are you gonna do fold? Even though you know you can't.

As played on the river it is tricky. MAYBE if V was capable of value betting thinly and you have an image where you're capable of bluffing here, you could raise for value here. But even then, I struggle to think of what he has that is betting the river and calling a raise. He 3b pre, you have the Kh, Qh,Th, 9h are all out there. So it is basically something like JhJx, AxJh, KxJh, and I don't know thst any of those hands actually call you if you raise. And there is a chance he has the nut flush or a boat here. If you click it and he jams, it's also pretty gross. So I lean towards call.

I lean towards 4b 500-550 pre. Guy is probably tilted, used to playing bigger stakes, he will likely call or jam with worse. Call off jam. If you show down KK not 4betting pre, if you play in this room regularly, you probably suffer from a very tight image, especially considering how you played flop and turn. Unless you were going for a one off trap.

You could definitely argue to bet the flop or turn. It is crazy not to check your suits. I like to look at my hole cards long enough to remember my suits pre and I will look back before the flop if I don't remember, certainly going to check again if I forget and they become relevant. You should consider betting the flop with a hand this strong -overpair, gutter, 2nd nut flush draw. You should consider betting the turn with the second nut flush. I'm not saying you have to bet, but you should consider it and you can't consider it if you don't know your suits.

Thanks for the responses so far, next chapter is:

After checking my pocket kings do in fact contain the Kh, I paused and then raised to 750.. after a short period of time villain moved all in (covering, so about another 600 to call getting a little over 4:1)

Hero?

What were you trying to accomplish with your river raise?

Maybe misplayed on every street.

Wow i thought u were contemplating fold or call on the river, raising is just a massive overplay lmao

Im 4b pre to 650, betting 300 otf, x turn, and calling or jamming river.

Sometimes in cash games you just run into it. If youre trying to reduce your variance then I guess play the hand as you did and just call river. Dunno why you raised if you werent going to bet earlier streets. But I take the more aggressive line as there are so many worst hands that will stack off vs you in 1/3 game with co v sb.

If hes a competent player in a splashy game hes going to be showing up with hands that arent the nut flush or boat. If hes a nit thats a diff story but getting coolered is a part of poker and its up to the player to decide how much variance to take on which is why having a good bankroll is imperative.

Fold I guess. He can't really be bluffing here and worse value isn't possible.

I think raising river is too thin. If you are going to raise in a spot like this, you should raise smaller. I think Villain folds everything that you are beating for $500 more.

This is such an egregious spot. We could have bluff caught for 250 and now we are contemplating hero calling off our 1,350 stack. You would have to have a pretty special hand history with villain to call off here. My gut is to fold. There are no bluffs that would be natural for a human to ever make here. Humans generally don't value bet 9x or Jh here and turn it into a bluff by 3b jamming it. They also don't bluff air and 3b jam bluff on the river. It is so easy for you to have the Ah or a boat here. In villain's shoes, it is hard to imagine that you have something that you put in so much of your stack with that you are now going to fold for 600 more.

You are getting a great price. Maybe if you have seen villain make suicidal bluffs before it is okay to hero this off.

But man, I really think your thought process is so off here. It is insane to not know your suits until the river. You have to be present mentally on ever street. When you raise river because you think you have the best hand, you have to think of the hands that will call your raise and believe you beat more than half those hands, otherwise just call river. When you aren't mentally present on all streets and thinking these things through, the result can be expensive.

QQ/TT/99 should be a good part of his 3! range. Then it is a 4-flush board and he leads out when the board pairs. He is representing a boat or better, not Ah at all. He should have only boats or better or bluffs. Then the 3! looks like QQ/99.

Very bizarre of OP to decide to check back the 2nd nut flush on the turn and then raise it when the board pairs.

In case it wasn’t clear in my original posts - I didn’t know I had the second nut flush on the turn at the time (and didn’t want to check during the hand until there was action)

I ended up flicking in the call and villain had pocket 10s for the full house

Expensive lesson learned, I often get annoyed at small mistakes I make (I never tilt from bad beats / run outs), but this one I’ve been able to take on the chin as a lesson.

My thought process through the hand was:

- happy to flat the 3 bet pre flop against this particular type of player as we were already heads up (I think I may even have flatted AA but not 100% sure on that)
- Out of habit I always check my hole cards as the flop is being dealt by the dealer.. every hand.. no idea why I didn’t on this particular occasion, the 3am factor could have played a part sitting happy with pocket kings (first major mistake I made)
- not an ideal flop for an over pair, so was happy to check back and evaluate on later streets
- check through turn for reasons stated above. If I knew I had the Kh I would have bet, but likely only half pot which would have kept villain around anyway
- on the river I was focussed too much on the flush, and didn’t go through my usual though process when considering villains half pot bet… again 3am didn’t help, it was pretty clear on reflection afterwards it should’ve just been a call of the 250 as nothing worse is calling my raise

Stacking off with KK when pocket 10s hit a set is relatively common, I was more troubled by my mistakes on the river which proved costly.. good to see the feedback in this thread lines up with my self review

I think the only way I possibly win the hand would have been if I Cbet the flop and then bombed the turn - but even then it’s likely I would have still got called down

Winning this hand was never an option and you shouldn't be concerned about that. Some hand you're just meant to lose. You should be concerned about making the best decision on every street. That is what went horribly wrong here. Even though it's basically inexcusable, I can kind of understand that fatigue caused you to forget your suits and that you checked behind a dangerous flop and turn for pot control. But I find these two huge mistakes on the river almost bizarre. There is no amount of fatigue, not even a coma, that would ever justify your river actions.

What is your thought process on never 4betting this guy preflop? You have the 2nd best hand in holdem vs a guy who is probably 3betting quite wide. He is likely tilted and likely will call or stack off with worse. You should be trying to shovel in as much money as possible preflop. Especially co vs straddle. It's not like he 3b you utg straddle vs utg +1.0.

I also think on the flop you're underestimating our and strength. Any heart or jack has a draw that is not folding flop vs a small bet. AxJh, AJ with no hearts, QJ, JT, JJ with or without hearts. AQ with or without Ah. AhKx. KQ. It's not a mandatory flop bet, but it's probably about 50/50 bet or check in theory.

It is close on the flop. You have overpair, straight and flush draws, but there is a good chance he made a set with his 3! range and a made straight is possible.

PRE - I'm guessing V is the UTG straddle? His 3B is YUGE. I think I'd prefer to put in the last bet, though I'm not sure how big we can go before V sees that we're pot committed. Maybe just click it up to $500-$550, to make it a 1 SPR going to the flop?

FLOP - Make a mental note to memorize our suits before finalizing our action pre-flop. I think we might want to bet full pot or over-bet.

TURN - Really doubtful an aggro V 3B's pre and checks the flop with a flush, or the naked Ah, or a straight, or a set, or even 2P. Think I'd be giving him a lot of Qx, JJ, and lower PP's, like 55-88, and I'd be betting around a PSB or an over-bet to target those hands for value.

RIVER - as played to this point, his 1/2 pot bet looks like a weak bluff or thin value. Not sure it makes sense to raise now, because it seems pretty unlikely that worse would call. It would suck to raise and get called by some low flush or a slow-played 2P that rivered a boat. I'd probably just call and hate myself for not 4B'ing pre.

Haven't read any other replies yet. Not sure what theory says about this spot, but my hunch is that we're supposed to have more flushes than he does here, when we hold the Kh in our hand, and the Qh and Th are on board.

If that's right, I'd guess we wouldn't need to be too worried about value-owning ourselves or getting blown off our equity when we take the betting lead at some point prior to the river.

Responding to the point in bold, above - are you flatting AA/KK because you're IP, or because it's *THIS* V? Would you 4B if you were OOP?

I'd be careful about not 4B'ing pre against aggro opponents (speaking as one). I try to keep mental notes on all the regs I've played against, and the easiest notes to remember are about the regs who don't 4B pre with big PP's (especially when they're OOP). It may seem like you're playing deceptively, but you're also making it easier for your opponent to make better decisions post-flop, because the SPR will be higher.

Also, FWIW - it seems like a lot of peeps struggle with how to play monotone flops. I've found a good heuristic is to remember that the run-out will either bring another flush card or pair the board (or both) about half the time, so it's best to fast-play our thick value and high-equity hands.

I think V made a mistake not fast-playing his set by c-betting the flop, but made up for it on the river.

When he checks turn, it seems reasonable to think we could have taken it down there, had we put in a pot sized bet on the flop, and jammed turn for a little more than half pot. He'd have been getting 2.77 to 1 with only a 20% chance of boating up on the river. Even if we didn't bet the flop, we could have taken it down with a 2.6x pot jam.