Mandatory UTG straddle gets spicy
1/3 NLHE 8 handed
Table is fun with a bunch of regs that know each other on a Friday night. Table is playing fairly deep and some people are on semi-lockdown which kind of sucks, but there's a few loose passives so plenty of EV to go around. Game is fairly limpy and quiet.
V1 - Reg I know quite well. Thinking breakeven player. Slowly adding ideas to his game but doesn't apply things correctly or doesn't understand the math involved. Has a lot of the basic leaks - calls too much pre, calls too far into the hand post, calls 3-bets too much, 3-bets himself a fair bit too and tries to 'go polar' in spots where it makes zero sense (like nit opens and he has 45s OTB and raises for some reason). But can be quite aggressive. Covers. LJ.
V2 - Friendly loose passive. He has three modes, 1. loose passive (when he arrives with his first BI), 2. lockdown (when he's up big on the night), 3. punt central (when he's been losing he'll rebuy and start cold 4-betting hands like Q9s, JTo). He's currently in lockdown mode as he's up. So he's limping a lot, limp folding, limp calling...he limps AA sometimes he's basically trying to avoid big spots. 800$ BB.
Hero is UTG and we're doing UTG straddle because we're all deep, I'm the shortest stack at the table with 750$.
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H straddles UTG, V1 limps LJ, an OMC limps HJ, a losing weak tight limps CO, V2 limps BB, Hero checks his option with the gruesome 7♣ 3♠, 5-ways 2nd to act.
Flop 25 - K♥ 6♦ 4♠
Four checks to CO who bets 10, V2 calls, H calls, V1 seems to be disinterested and is talking to waitress but then calls, OMC folds. 4-ways.
Turn 65 - 5♣
Checks through
River 65 - K♦
V2 checks, Hero bets 35, V1 raises to 200, weaktight in CO folds, V2 calls 200 and its back on us....
17 Replies
I'm not calling the flop getting 4:1 when my only chance of winning is hitting a gutterball.
^^ I would like to point out -- we have almost 750$ back and are drawing to the 2nd nuts MW.
There are no bluffs here. Although you are ahead of some value (Kx). I would feel much better calling here if we had 78 or if V2 hadn’t called. It would suck to fold vs 2 players with trips but I suspect we are second or third best here.
We should never call the flop with this type of gutshot, because when you hit, you dunno if you're good or not. Even if you hit and nobody else has 78, you might not get paid. Also you don't have position. I rather you raise then call on the flop.
So you rep Kx and get raised.
It's a question whether V1 overvalues his hands as in raising Kx here. Usually unless villain is a fish, they usually don't raise Kx here. Which means you're mostly beat here. But it's hard to find boats in V1 range, 66/44/k6/k4 should've bet/raised on the flop. 55 doesn't call this flop bet? I guess his range is only 78 or K5, with 78 being the most likely.
V2 overcalls usually rep Kx and sometimes st8/boats. V2 Kx range goes up the fishier he is, the tighter he is, st8/boats range goes up.
Overall we are nearly folding 100% of the time unless V1 is horrible spewing chips w/Kx, V2 just randomly calls w/Kx.
Oh and no we don't beat any value. There are like 0 bluffs here as well.
Nuff said, easy fold.
*edit* I think you can also shove on top. Pray and hope V1 range is 78 and 78 only and folds to the 3bet ship. Then pray V2 is a huge fish calls with random Kx and pay you off. Of course this is the best case scenario, and V1 will think you're super uber crazy fish shipping on top like that. Then V2 pukes and heads home and next time you stack him some more. rofl.
Unlikely someone has a boat.
They checked to co on turn so that doesn't define their ranges, same as you did.
On river V2 surely won't check a strong hand so he is capped at trips. But v1 probably has 87 or maaaybe chopping with you.
Flop you should have folded or raised if you wanted to continue
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Like a puppy with a carpetburned nose, I’ve finally learned not to draw for gutshots unless it makes the nut straight. Snap fold on the flop.
You caught the best possible card imaginable and don’t bet out as the short stack in a deep game, but then lead out with a mouse burp when a horrible card hits on the river?
Bet $75 on the turn. As played river’s a check-fold. CO had like K9s. V2 if in lockdown has to have 87 to just check-call a bet-big raise.
Rather bet the flop than call, just fold though. More likely to call 87 this way, but it's probably still bad without BDFD.
Your implied odds argument is bad, maybe K8/K7/K6/76/65/55 will bet the turn when you hit but how much are they calling when you raise? And how much do they want to call on the river if they miss?
And you are unlikely to make it to the river if the turn isn't a 5.
Might be best to just lead turn unless CO is going to spazz bet Kx when there are 666 two pairs or better among the 3 callers on the turn.
Not even sure I'd bet river, given CO is very likely to bet Kx again now and if I do it'd be less. 15 probably best but I might be greedy and bet 25.
When V1 raises he maybe does that with KQ or whatever sometimes, even though CO is behind and has a bunch of Kx in range but is V2 really checking and then cold calling a bet+raise with worse than a straight? You are praying it's weirdly played K8s trying to bluff and 32.
More than enough FH play this way IMO K6/K5/K4/55 maybe even 44.
Yea I guess I played badly
Result:
Spoiler
I call 200 and they have 44 and 78o
Don’t worry, you only lost about a third of what I once did in a somewhat similar situation.
Edit FTR: 1-3, I limped UTG with A4s, three more limpers, button raised to 15, blinds call, I call as do all the limpers.
Flop 258r with the 2 in my suit. Checked to button who bets 20, one of the blinds calls, I call as do two of the limpers.
Turn rainbow 3. Everybody checks, sigh.
River 7. I bet 100, first limper goes all in for 600, I eventually talk myself into it being 50/50 he has 77, lol.
Read the old Bobby Hoff interview I just bumped in NVG. I made every mistake he says bad players make.
FWIW, I don't mind the flop call too much, but I probably just fold. If I call flop and hit the turn, I'm betting. I snap fold the river. I honestly have zero idea why you would call vs. these players, especially V2?
Flop call seems very meh given very poor immediate odds, it will be harder to realize our IO OOP, and we have some serious RIO against bigger straights.
Again, very difficult to realize our IO OOP. The turn checking thru is a disaster as we'll never be able to make up what we required with the flop call. I'd donk the turn to help alleviate this.
I'd probably bet more on the river to target Kx. Super weird action. You'd think V1 would have donked turn with a hand that is beating us. And you'd think V2 would have donked turn or river with a hand that is beating us. I'm just having difficulty figuring out a hand by either of them that beats us that is played this way. But I'm really torn cuz we're facing a huge river raise multiway (which is typically nuttish) plus the lockdown guy called. In general I think I fold, although I must admit I'm not convinced I'm beat given the action.
ETA: So V1 check/overcalled the flop with a set and then let the turn check thru with only one guy behind him? And V2 hits the nuts on the turn and doesn't bet to protect his locked down stack? I mean, I guess people do weird things. But the proof in the pudding is usually the river play and sizing.
GcluelessconfusednoobG
ETA: So V1 check/overcalled the flop with a set and then let the turn check thru with only one guy behind him? And V2 hits the nuts on the turn and doesn't bet to protect his locked down stack? I mean, I guess people do weird things. But the proof in the pudding is usually the river play and sizing.
GcluelessconfusednoobG
And yet V1 probably won the most he could’ve and V2 probably lost the least he could’ve.
Played like a low stakes player. Call with any gutshot and can't fold once you hit it.
