top two pair allin on flop

Not sure why you raised so small the first time. Easy call; sorry you lost and thus posted the hand

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk

Yes I also think it is small on this board against someone who loves to draw. Probably should go to $80-100. But it kind of won't make a difference as we are short stacked?

I am trying to figure out is it possible to dodge this if with a better read/deeper stack. I have learned to respect the aggression at 1/3. Once folded a bottom two pair against an omc on a similar board/action but V2 is not that into the omc territory.

From what I see this one is a snap call given the situation. But want to hear other opinions.

Limp-calling preflop with 98s against a maniac when you're only 60 BB deep (!?) is pretty bad.

Fold pre. Your stack is 60bb. SC shouldn't be in any part of your range.

Once you get here, you have to call. Your raise on the flop should have been to $80 or all in. Agree w/ others that pre is just a fold. If you want to play this hand, raise first in, although vs. your average lineup that's not a great idea, either -- better than limp/calling, though.

Thanks for the replies guys, yes one seriously bad thing I did was getting in with mid/low SC and short stacked. Once the flop is there I guess there is no dodging that.

Not important to our decision but in case someone is curious:

We're too shallow to be facing a raise (which is always coming from this guy in the BB), so I would fold preflop both times.

SPR is just over 3 and we've got top two pair on a drawy board; we're trivially committed here. With $90 already in the pot and only $168 left, I probably just jam the flop.

And while we're not in love with facing the flat/jam from V2, this is still a trivial stack off at this depth. Only much deeper could we perhaps consider a hero fold against a sane player.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yes I am more interested in a deeper scenario as stack size kind of limited our move here (as played). Say we started with 100bb/$300, what are the chances that we fold here? The line of V2's actions, call - reraise allin, should imply no smaller than a double draw. I don't think there are a lot of bluffs in his range at this point, especially considering he lost a bit in the past few orbits. As much as he loves draws I don't think this type of player would go reraising a lot facing H who has a TAG image.

Even at $300 deep, the SPR will be about 6. Against a nittier player who never goes nutso with a tarping overplayed AA or goes hard on his big draws like JTss, we could perhaps start considering making a hero fold. But otherwise, even at $300 it's going to be a little difficult to get away from (even though there are no worse two pair in play that he can be doing this with). At $600 / 200bb where most players only get in stacks with the ~nuts (at least in smaller BI games) then we could make some hero folds more regularly.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I am still adjusting to $1/3 from the things I learned elsewhere. One thing I found out is call-call-raise allin is usually nuts/eff nuts, likely made on river. Not so sure about allins on flop/turn but I still expect to see made hands from nitty players who does not do fancy plays/plays based on odds. At $300 we would have $230 calling into a ~$150 + $270 pot. What puzzles me is if the nitty players would have 30% chance to reraise allin with draws. I may be mentally anchored to this recent data point, but my general takeaway from previous experience is to not overcall in $1/3 facing bad regs.

I mean, I've heard enough bad regs say "I can't just call there, I have to shove or fold" with Axss / etc. (even though they are getting immediate odds to call), so we have to be extremely wary of folding (especially at smaller stack depths / SPRs) on very drawy boards.

GcluelessoverfoldingnoobG

Interesting, I also recall some with that kind of image. That usually coincides with the ones who call 1/3 pot sized bets all the way holding TPNK, IMO worse than players like V2. I need to play more to refine on my player classification.

Suited connectors are not great even at 100bbs since you just want to out pip your opponent. I like 200 bigs at minimum.

PRE - raise or fold. At this stack depth, it's just a fold.

You can't limp in, planning to over-call a raise from V1, when everyone who's already VPIP'd likely has the same read on him that you do - he's a maniac, and they have position on him, and they're getting a price. Even in the CO, you don't love going multi-way with 98s and a short-stack.

FLOP - flat call to trap, or jam. Could go either way.

If V2 has the same read on V1 that you do, and he likes to chase his draws, he's going to be calling V1's c-bet pretty wide. Raising 3x off your short stack isn't going to make him fold his good draws, and it's not impossible for him to show up with a set, which is going to be happy to back-jam once V1 folds.

His sets have us crushed. We're basically flipping with his combo-draws. There's $149 in the pot when action gets back to him, or $179 if V1 calls. V2 will be getting 5:1 or 6:1 to continue. What hands is he folding to this raise size?

Raising small to keep your opponents in the hand doesn't make logical sense when we're not deep enough to fold on later streets. As played, I don't expect to win when V2 back-jams. That's super-strong. But I don't see how we can fold top 2P vs this opponent, when we get here the way we did.

I agree with most of your analysis, flop raise/jam make no difference as V2 will call either with double draw or 2p+. But I think V2 could still probably call a raise with A9 or maybe T9 BDFD but fold to jam. At1/3 it may worth to extract thin value from stationary players.

I mean...A9s is two combos. Do you think he's getting involved with A9o? Even if he is, that's only 8 combos. T9s is another 2 combos. If he does have A9 or T9, is he going to keep putting money in if he doesn't improve on the turn?

Whether it's 2 combos, 8 combos, or 10 combos - that's a narrow range of hands to target for value, betting small, hoping he calls with 3 outs (especially since a T also brings in 76 and QJ). Think about the rest of his range, based on your read. He could have all the OESD's and flush draws, and some combo-draws.

Those hands are never folding the flop when you're laying them 5:1. He may not fold getting 2:1. If he wants to see all five cards, just jam, and lay him 1.7 to 1.

Most of the range we'd be targeting seems like it's going to be draws, or 1P + a draw. We're going to hate every spade, and every 5, 6, 7, T, J, Q, or A, and we can't really love a K. That's 35-39 cards, so we're going to be frozen on the turn around 70%-80% of the time.

I think we just want to get max value for our hand on the flop, before a dirty turn card kills the action, or we have to decide if we want to call or fold facing a big donk. We don't mind if we fold out some worse hands like A9 or T9, so long as we get max value from most of his range.