Call the 3-bet or 4-bet with QQ? 2/5 NL
The game is 2/5 NL, full-ring (9-handed).
First villain (V1) is mostly unknown to me. He seems to be tilting pretty badly by being a LAGtard pre-flop, but less insane post-flop. In an emotionally stable state, I think V1 is a small long-term winner.
Other villain (V2) is a good and observent reg. He 3-bets a lot when he suspects others are opening too widely, as V1 was doing while tilting. Has the guts to call down with A-high vs suspected big bluffs.
My image was very tight and timid, but, really, my hole cards had been pretty bad and boards had wrecked my few decent hands, e.g. KsQs8s flop when I 3-bet with 9h9d and get 4 callers. It had been like this for at least 2 hours.
Both Villains are good enough to notice... and V2's a good enough reg that any change to my image over the long-run does actually matter.
Other players are not relevant to the hand, other than their deep stacks encouraging bigger open raise sizes.
I'm the effective stack against key villains at ~$1000.
Pre-Flop ($7)
V1 is UTG and opens to $35. (A common open size at this table due to deep stacks.)
V2 in UTG+1 3b! to $125.
MP folds.
Hero in LJ looks down at Q♥Q♠ and... ?
I'll put my thinking in a spoiler. Consider replying first before replying. :-)
Spoiler
Tilty V1's range is so wide that QQ should raise against him for value 100% of the time.
I think but don't really know that V2's range would raise for value and isolation with quite a few hands.
On the other hand, their positions are very early, so I can perhaps weight the top of their range a little more heavily.
Option 1: Flat. V2 and maybe V1 will know my range is 99-QQ, AKo, AQs. This turns my hand face up. But it might keep in a lot of crappy hands in that I crush... and I am IP.
Option 2: 4-bet to, say, $325. I do need to protect against both an A and a K coming on the board. I need value from most pairs, AK and AQ. But can I actually get action of any type from anything other than AA or KK? What would you do against a V1 or V2 shove?
Option 3: Jam. Can I get called by anything other than AA or KK?
Obviously, I can't fold. But given my image, any involvement in this pot will scream "PREMIUM HAND" to both V1 and definitely V2. Given that, I'm not sure which option is best. I lean towards Option 2 with a bet-fold plan.
What do you think?
This is a tough spot.
I don’t like cold calling 3-bets unless it’s with a monster to trap a LAG opener who you suspect will 4-bet shove light. You are way ahead of a loose open and a thinking 3-bettor aiming to exploit this. My only concern is that they are UTG and UTG+1. Are they positionally aware and tightening up somewhat from EP?
I think I like a cold 4-bet given the dynamic and the key is that it can be a small raise. Cold 4-bets IP in theory do not need to be big. I would make it 300 even. V1 should be forced to shove or fold. We are giving V2 incentive to call but he won’t like being OOP against a super strong range with a low SPR.
The reality is that nothing in this spot will be super comfortable.
Shove. The guy opened 7x and next to act went 4x.
I played a game like this the other night where I had 1000$ and everyone was double straddling to 20 and opening to 100$ over that. Finally saw ATs and ripped and lost.
250/fold
I just read your spoiler (which isn’t truly a spoiler) and we are thinking along the same lines.
It’s ok to define your range as strong when you cold 4-bet. We are dealing with very narrow ranges by definition. You still have a bottom of range (AK/QQ) and top of range (AA/KK). To balance further you can take a single good bluff hand like A5s or 98s and occasionally 4-bet/fold with it. But that is generally not necessary esp at low stakes.
... I don't like cold calling 3-bets unless it's with a monster to trap a LAG opener who you suspect will 4-bet shove light. You are way ahead of a loose open and a thinking 3-bettor aiming to exploit this. My only concern is that they are UTG and UTG+1. Are they positionally aware and tightening up somewhat from EP...
V1 is tilting, but not so badly as to shove light, as both he and V2 are even deeper than I am. He'll also recognize my involvement in the pot as "PREMIUM HAND". The odds of this trap working are tiny.
I do not think tilty V1 is thinking about position when opening.
In contrast, V2 is very positionally aware.
... To balance further you can take a single good bluff hand like A5s or 98s and occasionally 4-bet/fold with it. But that is generally not necessary esp at low stakes.
Against most villains at 2/5, I agree this balance is not necessary... but against V2, it probably is.
That being said, I am never doing this at 2/5 with a bunch of players left to act behind me. That would be crazy, wouldn't it?
... I think I like a cold 4-bet given the dynamic and the key is that it can be a small raise. Cold 4-bets IP in theory do not need to be big. I would make it 300 even. V1 should be forced to shove or fold. We are giving V2 incentive to call but he won't like being OOP against a super strong range with a low SPR...
A small 4-bet and fold strategy seems popular so far.
I think it's right, though I'm not 100% sure. So, some other follow up questions
(1) How often does such a situation occur? I think it's pretty rare, but given that it'd be for stacks, it's still pretty important. Is that right?
(2) Can anybody link to resources/threads/articles/etc. that talk about how to think about 4-betting in these kinds of spots?
Shove. The guy opened 7x and next to act went 4x.
I played a game like this the other night where I had 1000$ and everyone was double straddling to 20 and opening to 100$ over that. Finally saw ATs and ripped and lost.
I don't think the 7x open is actually that crazy for the game. When effective stacks are 100BBs, the typical open raise size is 4BB or 5BB. Opening to 7BB might be more than I'd raise to, but when most stacks are 250+BB, 7x doesn't strike me as that far out of line.
How does the 7x and 4x convince you that shoving is correct?
... To balance further you can take a single good bluff hand like A5s or 98s and occasionally 4-bet/fold with it. But that is generally not necessary esp at low stakes.
Against most villains at 2/5, I agree this balance is not necessary... but against V2, it probably is.
That being said, I am never doing this at 2/5 with a bunch of players left to act behind me. That would be crazy, wouldn't it?
I wouldn’t advocate it no. But OTTH I wouldn’t worry too much about players left to act after a cold 4-bet because if any decide to get involved they have AA/KK anyway. Maybe only AA.
It's a gross spot when UTG raises fairly large (considering only 200BB effective) and then UTG+1 3-bets.
Even if UTG+1 is raising wide, you still have to contend with the UTG raise...and you don't have enough to raise-fold, so any bet is a shove or a raise-call.
It's a situation where I'd have to be at the table with history and reads to go against the urge to fold.
Edit: Although I later read the "spoiler, " I have a hard time believing that this crusher is going to be so reckless by 3-betting super wide in UTG+1.
... I think I like a cold 4-bet given the dynamic and the key is that it can be a small raise. Cold 4-bets IP in theory do not need to be big. I would make it 300 even. V1 should be nforced to shove or fold. We are giving V2 incentive to call but he won't like being OOP against a super strong range with a low SPR...
A small 4-bet and fold strategy seems popular so far.
I think it's right, though I'm not 100% sure. So, some other follow up questions
(1) How often does such a situation occur?
I think in this specific hand, I would 4-bet fold if V1 folds and V2 shoves but I may call if V1 shoves and V2 folds given overlay from V2’s dead money and V1’s image. Unless you think that even the tilting LAG’s 5-bet range is only KK/AA.
It's a gross spot when UTG raises fairly large (considering only 200BB effective) and then UTG+1 3-bets.
Even if UTG+1 is raising wide, you still have to contend with the UTG raise...and you don't have enough to raise-fold, so any bet is a shove or a raise-call.
It's a situation where I'd have to be at the table with history and reads to go against the urge to fold.
I would imagine a very good situationally aware V2’s UTG+1 3-bet value range against this V1’s open still contains hands we crush like AQ/JJ/TT.
I would imagine a very good situationally aware V2’s UTG+1 3-bet value range against this V1’s open still contains hands we crush like AQ/JJ/TT.
I really don't like GII with QQ 200BB effective, but I'm not calling and I'm not raise-folding 30+% of my stack.
But given the reads, I guess that shoving is the play, unless you want to call or 4-bet small and potentially face a 2-3 way flop with SPR < 1.
It's a gross spot when UTG raises fairly large (considering only 200BB effective) and then UTG+1 3-bets.
Even if UTG+1 is raising wide, you still have to contend with the UTG raise...and you don't have enough to raise-fold, so any bet is a shove or a raise-call.
It's a situation where I'd have to be at the table with history and reads to go against the urge to fold.
When V1 (aka UTG) raised, there wasn't really a clear effective stack number. He, V2, and several other players were well over 200BBs. I was among the shorter ones at ~200BBs.
Also, I should have clarified in the original post: When I say V1 was playing "LAGtard", I meant he was open-raising at least 50% of the times that he could.
As for V2, I think that a moderately wide and definitely linear 3b! range still makes the most sense, so 77+, AJo+, KQo+. If it's not something like that, then what do you think V2's range is? Given you said you might fold, do you consider it AA/KK exclusively?
It is incredibly clear that we are WAY ahead of both V’s ranges. Shoving is the more scared way to play this hand.
As for V2, I think that a moderately wide and definitely linear 3b! range still makes the most sense, so 77+, AJo+, KQo+. If it's not something like that, then what do you think V2's range is?
When I first read the hand, I was ascribing too tight of a range to V2. He should certainly have a wide enough range for us to easily 4-bet, especially if you're not even concerned about V1.
Since I'm never folding here, we need to decide if we want to shove right now, which folds out hands with 20-35% equity (e.g. 88/ATs/etc.), gets snapped by AA/KK, and should get called by AK...
...or whether we want to call or 4-bet small, which leads us to a 2-3 way flop with SPR<1, where our skill and positional advantages won't matter.
4-bet small > shove > call imo
I see the reason why some people recommend 4bet and folding to shove. I'm not saying it's wrong/bad.
But the thing is, are they really going to call the 4bet? If they're going to jam/fold to this type of 4bet, why don't you try more with Ax/Kx bluffs.
Anyways, I think I like a 4bet to around 260-70ish. Then call or fold depending on read vs jam.
As for the hand, if preflop raise sizes are "normal", then maybe treat it as a 5/10, 100bb stack game. Which means we never cold 4bet then folding QQ, probably snap call, lol.
Let's say 4-betting is the right play. How are people in this thread thinking about sizing?
Grunch - I’m in the 4b camp. And probably calling a shove should that occur.
In a vacuum I think it would be OK to fold here; positions should make ranges extremely strong. The 7x raise may be standard for the table, but the 3bet is chunky.
However, if UTG is opening too wide and you think that +1 is exploiting this, then you have a fine hand for a 4bet. Anything 250-300 would be fine, and fold to a shove because YOU should be extremely strong here (basically you will look like you have QQ+/AK). This would be my choice here, but there's probably little difference between this and folding.
Agree with $250 - $300 and decide based on who shoves. If you are seen on the tighter side, it's tough to imagine they shove w/ worse than AK, but it would be tough to fold vs. V1 in the state he's in.
Grunch, haven't read the spoiler...
If you only have $1k to start, you could 4B to $275, and fold to a jam. I'd think that cold 4B will take down the pot very often, regardless of our reads.
Here, if the read is that V1 is FOS, and V2 knows it, and therefore V2 can be semi-FOS, this seems like a no-brainer 4B, especially if you've got the image of a meek little mouse who's never poking his head out.
Now off to read the spoiler...
Option 1 - out of the question. We must 4B.
Option 2 - out of the question, because that 4B size doesn't leave you enough behind for there to be any perception of fold equity facing a 5B-jam. If you 4B that size, you SHOULD call a jam, not fold.
Option 3 - Ehhh...if the remaining stack depth was a little lower, I could see jamming, because that's what we'd do with AK, and some worse AX or some lower PP's. I think we're just a smidge too deep here, and we won't get called by JJ/TT or AK often enough to make that play. If we jam $1k over $125, we're only getting called by AA/KK, and maybe AKs.
