OOP against a weak player, and a tough player again...Probably multiple mistakes made by me...
2/3/5 NL - B/SB/BB - 8 handed
Background:
Hero should have a TAG table image. Hasn't played many hands, but has won the few he has played without showdowns. Hero has been playing with both villains for about 3 hrs.
V1 - Young Asian male, LAGGY, is making mistakes with bet sizing. Example: He's in the SB, and 4 people limp for $5 each, and he raises to $100. I've seen him do this three times already. The 3rd time, V2 raises him all-in for about $500. V1 calls, and V1's AJo hits the Jack high board and wins the pot. V2 doesnt show his hand. Another example, in a previous hand H donk bet small on the turn (with top 2) in a 3-bet pot, purposefully inducing V1 to raise on the turn. V1 folded when H shoved back over him, and V1 likely had a weak hand that he had no business c-betting the flop with in the first place. Bottom line, I think V1 is very exploitable.
V2 - LAGGY pro, solid player, 40's Asian male, daily player at this cardroom, I've talked about him in my prior posts.
OTTH: Stacks: V1 $1000, V2 $775, H $2600
H opens to $15 in utg with AsQd
V1 $60 in LJ.
V2 calls in CO.
H calls. (Earlier I had folded AQo in a very similar situation facing a 3! OOP after opening. I think that maybe this should always be a fold, or maybe a very very rare 4!.)
($180) Ac Js 4c
H checks.
V1 $90.
V2 calls.
At this point, I see V1 subtly wince when V2 calls, and I read him for weak. I don't have a read on V2, but think he might be flatting with Axs.
I decide to raise to $390.
V1 folds quickly.
V2 thinks for 10 seconds and shoves for a total of $715.
Now that I got myself to here, what to do?
(Was the $390 too big, maybe $290 is better?)
11 Replies
I mean...you can't fold, but I doubt you're good at the moment. Looks like AJ or A4 for value, or some sort of "eff it" shove with a draw.
I was wondering if I could have found a fold on the flop here. But because V2 could hold just an Ace and put me on a flush or combo draw, I think I have to call. Maybe had I raised to just $290, I could have folded to his flop shove.
Before check raising this flop, I should have given V2 more credit and scrutinized him a bit. He is usually quite a tough player. But on this day he had been running cold, and bad, and was into his 3rd buy-in. I had seen him make a couple questionable plays already, which I haven't seen from him in the past. I thought he might be off his game.
However, it turned out he had pocket 4s. Now, is that evidence of him being off his game? Is cold calling a $60 3-bet IP in the cutoff a profitable play? I mean, in this case it was for him, but overall is that a winning preflop play? 155B deep, is this an ok prefop call with 44 - should I consider adding this to my game?
Cold calling the 3B with 44 seems pretty optimistic. He'll have to fold if someone 4B's. He'll have to fold most flops if someone bets. If he's capable of making disciplined folds pre or post, and capable of getting max value when he hits a set, it's debatable, maybe.
I understand your play, when you spot the tell from V1, and think V2 is capped. It may be too aggro or too thin with our exact hand, and at this stack depth.
Problem is, if second villain is competent and also has a cold calling range of three bets, then that range is likely to be hugely condensed and strong. Also remember that he has reason to be concerned about us in this scenario as we opened UTG.
And then add in that he has to worry about you behind and he’s probably just dumping a hand like KQ (except the FD combo) and may even be inclined to fold a hand like ATs.
I really would not be shocked to see AK or JJ in this guy’s line here.
Fold pre obv.
I have vowed to fold AQo near 100% in the future in this situation.
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I have vowed to fold AQo near 100% in the future in this situation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
All due respect to you and OD, if our read is that both V's are LAG, perhaps we can at least consider 4B'ing here, from OOP with AQo.
Not wanting to be results oriented, but I'd think a 4B folds out a lot of low-middling PP's and worse AX that can put us in the blender post-flop. Speaking as a LAG player, I'm generally willing to play marginal hands when I'm IP and deep, but I over-fold those marginal hands facing escalated aggression, especially from OOP TAGs.
If we 4B AQo and get 5B, it's an easy fold. I don't care how LAG they are. They're not 5B'ing worse than AQo. The problem with flatting AQo is we're in no-man's land post. The problem with folding is that we're over-folding vs the typical LAG's 3B (and 3B-calling) range, which is going to be WAY too wide.
Let me just add one more comment to this, in defense of my LAG 3B'ing range - at low stakes, I'm not getting punished nearly as often as I should be. People are generally under-3B'ing, and way under-4B'ing.
The fact that hero opened 3x UTG doesn't keep me from 3B'ing. His self-perception as TAG doesn't stop me. The fact that he's mostly won without showdown only emboldens me. The only thing that stops me from 3B'ing light is when an opponent shows me he's capable of 4B'ing with more than just AA/KK/AKs.
If CO sees hero as TAG, maybe he tightens up on his 3B range a little, but he still wants to 3B a fair bit, to shut out the BTN and the blinds, and get this HU and IP. If hero isn't 4B'ing enough, CO gets to the flop with the range advantage and position.
OP caught CO wincing when BTN called his c-bet. We can infer he was 3B'ing light, and we know BTN was cold-calling the 3B really light. 4B'ing a LAG 3B is going to be better than flatting and hoping to cooler or trap someone.
