Rough seas with whale in 4-bet pot
1/3 NLHE 9 handed
Changed to this table as it seemed to be the most action. One maniac left and things have quieted down a bit but lots of cold opens to 30$, MW hands and not much 3-betting. If anyone has anything "real" they'll 3-bet huge and shove most flops. We've been somewhat card dead and the table has noticed we're not playing too many hands. Hero is the effective stack in this hand with 1200$.
V - Massive whale. The guy that rebuys for the max (500) several times until he starts hitting and then is basically unstoppable. VPIP close to 100%. RFI range is like AXs, KXs, SCs, S1Gs, PPs, maybe S2Gs..you get the idea. But he also calls when faced with aggression so you need to have a real hand with him. He'll check or call and chase any draw. He's now stacked a few people and covers the table. Earlier we saw him open call 96dd UTG+1 when UTG was a super straightforward loose passive (had KK), flop Jd-8h-5c V calls a 2.5x pot bet, turn is a 2d, he calls another 2x pot bet, river he hits his gutshot.
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Folds to hero in LJ who opens to 15 off 1200$ (small for table) with K♥ K♦, BTN loose passive bleeding down calls off 800$ stack, V to 45 from BB, H to 175, BTN folds, V calls. HU IP.
Flop 365 - Q♣ T♥ 6♣
V leads 175, H calls
Turn 715 - 5♦
V leads 175, H calls
River 1065 (675 back) - 5♥
V bets 225....
20 Replies
Your reads mostly focus on him calling and chasing, which don't seem very relevant to this hand, where what we need to know is his 3-betting range as well as his betting tendencies post-flop.
AP, I'm snap calling the river, if not actually raising.
Shove the river
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Your 4B size pre is too big. You should make it $100-$125, at most.
Strange line by V. Definitely not folding. Only raise size that makes sense is all in.
Either jam or call.
To answer AF:
-he almost never 3-bets at 1/3, at 2/5 he does a bit more
-he cold calls 3-bets all the time
-he VPIPs literally 95-100%
-so about 100/60/3-5
-he overvalues hands including top pair
-his check/calling range postflop is absolute trash
-he often donks made hands, these can be anything from weak top pair or 2nd pair to the mortal nuts
-the turn and river really elucidate his hand strength, he sharpens up and doesn't get nearly as out of line on these later streets
-he sees me as a very nitty premiums only player
If he's got a better hand, he's just got a better hand. His line looks bluffy AF. We can't fold.
Shove.
I'd probably raise the flop or at least jam the turn - flop is super drawy/connected and there's a lot of turn cards that you're going to make a mistake on especially given how he plays. As played on the river I would think he rarely calls a jam - the flop had so many draws that I doubt he has anything. I would tank jam the river or however you feign weakness - it was such a drawy flop that either he has the draw and snap folds or will think you were drawing and should call off.
Suddenly I'm wondering if Banana is going to tell us he jammed and this guy snapped with A5cc.
So my thought process was his donk out on QT6FD is a made hand, I was right, hoping it was AQ or KQ..
Result:
Spoiler
I just call the small river bet and he has AA.
Spoiler
I agree with not jamming based on the Villain description. I am obviously never folding but if you are saying he rarely 3bets then that tilts his range to QQ/TT. He has 6 combos of each of those and we are not sure how he plays AQ/KQ, are we? He could easily just call with those preflop, especially KQ. Now that we know he plays AA this way too I think shoving may be too thin.
I'd also like to point out how well I run these days - card dead for an hour, finally pick up KK against a guy VPIPing 99% and he has AA..
You're supposed to go broke AA vs KK. You did well to keep some of your stack.
Next time, don't 4B so large, and you'll keep more.
You're supposed to go broke AA vs KK. You did well to keep some of your stack.
Next time, don't 4B so large, and you'll keep more.
If Villain is calling ALL the time, shouldn't we make it EVEN larger with KK as a pure exploit? We could 7x to $320 and then have a 1.5 SPR on the flop. If V is inelastic to sizing, we should take advantage.
If Villain is calling ALL the time, shouldn't we make it EVEN larger with KK as a pure exploit? We could 7x to $320 and then have a 1.5 SPR on the flop. If V is inelastic to sizing, we should take advantage.
How far down in our range are we going before we don't 4B so large? How much stronger is V's range when he calls a large 4B? If we think he's calling ALL the time, why not jam?
If you jam preflop, he would certainly call here with aces.
How far down in our range are we going before we don't 4B so large? How much stronger is V's range when he calls a large 4B? If we think he's calling ALL the time, why not jam?
Not very far at all. Maybe QQ. This is a pure exploit. I’d be 4betting small (2.5x) with AK/AQ, for instance, primarily to get HU deep IP v a whale.
Why not open to 30 if everyone is still giving action?
Jamming river happily.
Not very far at all. Maybe QQ. This is a pure exploit. I’d be 4betting small (2.5x) with AK/AQ, for instance, primarily to get HU deep IP v a whale.
I think you guys misunderstood my point. The hypothetical question was "if V is calling ALL the time, why not size up with our 4B?". Taking that question to its logical conclusion - why not jam?
Obviously he's calling with AA if we jam. But if V folds anything, especially if he folds everything worse, that puts the lie to "he's always calling," which is why we shouldn't jam.
If we open to 15, and V 3B's to 45, and we jam for 1200, is he really calling ALL the time, or ONLY with AA? The point is there's a range of 4B size from min-click to all-in jam. At a certain size, our 4B is probably too big.
Larger 4B sizes force V to continue with a stronger range. Smaller 4B sizes force V to continue with a weaker range.
When we're starting 1200 eff, and hero 4B's to 175, I think it's too big, because the only 5B size that makes any sense is all-in. That 4B size doesn't put enough pressure on V to decide if he wants to 5B with AA, or QQ, or if he just wants to call with JJ/AK/AQ.
Obviously I limp in, but this deep more reason to juice preflop.
I like offering poor 8:1 IO preflop, especially when I'm going to be setting up an SPR where I probably can't fold postflop. Which means about $200. $175 is in the ballpark but I just think we can go that smidge bigger (especially since he's never folding).
SPR is slightly less than 3, we haz an overpear, and we're up against the table whale who could easily have worse hands (AQ/KQ/etc.) that are never folding. If he's outflopped us for this prefop price, nice hand sir. Board is super drawy, I think I would actually shove the flop.
We only have a ~PSB left for the turn. I'm jamming it in. I think flatting here is pretty bad, no? We're committed in a huge pot (are we thinking of folding to a 2/3 PSB on the river?) so letting this guy possibly get there for an amazing price seems pretty bad to me.
Like your other thread, I can only assume the river question is whether to call versus jam? My guess is he typically jams better, so we're probably losing value versus AQ/KQ and now even versus QT by not jamming.
Having said all that, ask me the last time I got in $1200. I'm pretty sure I've never done that in 6410 hours of 1/3 NL as our game simply doesn't play this big. So I'll admit I'm a little out of my lane here.
GcluelessdeepstacknoobG
