okay, so I checkraised the flop with a draw. now what?

okay, so I checkraised the flop with a draw. now what?

1/2 at an American Legion hall.

Villain is the best player in our pool by a country mile. He's cashed in tournaments so prominent that he's listed on the Hendon Mob database. He's soul-read me on multiple occasions and so far as I can tell has no real holes in his game except one: he gets whiny and talks about how bad he runs (which is hilarious when he's up $500) and I think can be tilty, though most people refuse to play back at him.

That changes now.

V almost certainly thinks I'm a tight-passive nit, and he's more or less right. My goal most of the time is to take the money from the fish and try not to give it all up to V.

OTTH:

V has just been stacked when his flopped top two lost to a limped-in AK when the Ace spiked on the turn. As the hand is being dealt, he's rebuying for $1000 (no limits here, y'all) and is not only pissed at losing the hand, but losing the hand to someone who didn't raise his AK. He's also pissed at the chip-runners for taking so long, so he tosses a $20 bill on the table and announces a raise from UTG. Folded to me in the SB with red 66. I call.

His standard raise is $12, maybe $15 if there's limpers. Putting him on any pair, probably any Ace, K9+ and any 2 Broadway. I'm open to discussion about the merits of a 3! here, but I didn't want to face a spite-4!.

Flop (~$40): 8 7 5

V bets $40 (in chips this time), I checkraise to $100 . . .

I would never checkraise this flop against a fishy opponent, but I believe I'm beating V's range.

. . . V calls.

Turn (~$240): 2

Well, I was beating his range, but he says he's still good. How big am I barelling off here, and what's my river plan?

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17 March 2025 at 09:31 PM
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38 Replies

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FWIW I'm 100% shoving river for pot with Th9h, if I get there.
In fact there's a real good chance I shove Jc7c for pot too if I got beamed onto the river with it.

Also I can't see me folding QQ+ as V, or any JcXc and TT/99 might tank call too.

On the bright side 66 might be the best hand on the river vs. Ac*c/KcQc/etc. that might take this line (tank check no pair, unsure if semi-bluffing turn is just burning money -- and there's, at least, some chance V shoves turn with QQ+)
So H checks again, and tries to work out wtf to do if V bets.


I would x/f the river as played. It doesn't make sense to check the turn with a wet board and shove the river. His whole line looks like a big pair and people don't like folding those. Your x/r could be a straight and/or flush draw. You could maybe get bluffed if he had a draw, but that seems unlikely.

I would have played each street differently from OP. Fold preflop, call flop, and shove turn as played.


I think his range is very heavy AK/AQ or an overpair. He has more Ax flushes that got there, while you could have T9. It's hard to see how a jam is good because you could be running into a flush and a hand as light as QQ isn't going to fold, I think TT has to grudgingly call. So you would fold out AK type hands that you beat and get called by almost every hand that beats you.

So I think the river provides two options: A blocker sized bet, like $30. Or a check.

The blocker sets your price against KK/QQ that might value bet $100-$150 on the river. and discourages a bluff. I think V would frequently call with one pair hands and might pay off with something like AK and might give up any random bluffs thinking you could have stumbled into a flush or straight. If V comes over the top, you're probably beat and can fold. Basically, you are saving yourself from checking and getting bluffed.

Checking, You probably have to fold to most bets, but I think most regs fail to turn ace high into a bluff in this situation. If that's the case with him, checking should win slightly more because you are still winning when he has AK, and you avoid paying when he has better. If he's going to bluff with Ax a lot, then the blockbet would be better.


Forgot to post how it ended: I blocker-bet $50 in the hopes that it would look like a "please call me" bet, but he read me for busted clubs or a missed OESD or naked OC's and raised a stack of green chips bigger than my dick and I folded.


by marchron k

Forgot to post how it ended: I blocker-bet $50 in the hopes that it would look like a "please call me" bet, but he read me for busted clubs or a missed OESD or naked OC's and raised a stack of green chips bigger than my dick and I folded.

Yeah I hate it when they raise with a 4" stack of greens, it's more than I want to call and getting cock-mogged at the poker table sucks :(


V‘s on tilt - less fold equity - we should bluff way less.


by marchron k

Forgot to post how it ended: I blocker-bet $50 in the hopes that it would look like a "please call me" bet, but he read me for busted clubs or a missed OESD or naked OC's and raised a stack of green chips bigger than my dick and I folded.

Casino chips are 0.13 inches thick, and he's just rebought for 1k which if it's entirely in green would be 40 chips for 5.2 inches but he's put in $100 in chips so max 4.68 (maybe 4.55 if the $20 preflop bet counts).

But for the other form of poker, a couple of things to think about:

1) Blocker bets are generally used where you can have a some strong hands and a bunch of medium strength hands, where the strong ones protect getting raised when you bet small with the medium ones ... given the board and turn action it is very unlikely that you have strong hands.

2) He opened UTG and you called in SB, where again he "almost certainly thinks I'm a tight-passive nit". Then you x/r flop, x turn and bet 40 into 240 on 8c7s5c 2s Js and he then shoves another 200. Seems insane that KKs would do that for value, JJ/T9 are about the only hands that makes sense for sane value ... but him having AcKc and deciding your turn check and weak river bet is 8x or worse and you'll fold range is v. possible.
Eh, I guess he can decide you always have 8x or worse and so auto shoves KK and doesn't care if you always fold.


by marchron k

Forgot to post how it ended: I blocker-bet $50 in the hopes that it would look like a "please call me" bet, but he read me for busted clubs or a missed OESD or naked OC's and raised a stack of green chips bigger than my dick and I folded.

In order for a blocker bet to be viable, our opponent has to have worse hands that will call. What worse hands call here?

To add to Illiterat's point, a small blocker bet can induce raises. We need to have some strong hands that can call. If we have no strong hands in range, we can't block bet.

Also, sorry about your dick.


Sad that the blocker bet got owned and you don't know what he had. I think if this opponent is as tough as you say, you would either check and soul read OR shove it yourself and put part of his range to the test.
With the turn being a blank, that's the best place to shove, as you still have equity vs overpairs and a credible story (coupled with your nit image)
Sometimes you gotta risk falling flat on your face... Alternatively, fold preflop and move on.


Misplayed on 4 streets.


I mean, yeah, I didn't post it because I thought I played it expertly. I posted because I have to deal with this pain in my ass for 10+ hours every week and need to know how not to get pwnt. This past weekend I tried 3betting him with the solver hand and took another uncallable $175 river bet to the face UI. Meanwhile, I made two sets and he weaseled out of my bets both times.

Maybe Polarbear1955 is right and I do have a tell.

by docvail k

Also, sorry about your dick.

I mean, I wasn't hard at the time, guys. Now THAT would be a tell.


It's possible you have a tell. I see them a lot in live games. Practice keeping a straight face, pausing for a few seconds before taking any action, and deliberately cutting out your bets and putting them in the pot the same way all the time.

Also, an interesting bit of advice picked up from Marc Goone at Hungry Horse poker - when facing a very good opponent, play your bluffs like they'd play value, and play your value like they'd play bluffs.

I'm not sure how you'd actually play the hands you're trying to rep here, but put yourself in V's position, and think about the hand if you were facing an opponent taking the same line you did. That's kind of what I was getting at when I said I was stuck trying to think of a value hand you could credibly rep that takes this line.

If you're repping sets or T9 on the river, V has to believe that you'd check-raise those hands on the flop, but NOT jam the turn that brings in a BDFD, and then ALSO go for really small sizing on the river, when you make your hand with T9s, or your sets are dust when all the draws get there.

If you saw someone take that line, would you believe he rivered a straight, or a flush, or flopped a set or 2P? I wouldn't. I wouldn't believe he had a flopped set or 2P, because those hands would x/r for more than 2.5x, and they'd probably jam the turn.

If an opponent had the balls to x/r the flop with T9s, I'd expect him to barrel the turn, and if he didn't, I'd expect him to go HUGE on the river, when he makes his hand (like illiterat said - he's 100% shoving with T9hh, spade flush draws be damned).

I honestly don't know what hands you think fold when you block bet 20% pot. I might look you up with 7x or better, and if I think I can make you fold a better hand, I'm going to raise as a bluff.

But, if you actually did get to the river with a spade draw, after x/r'ing the flop and checking turn, and then you bet small, he's very unlikely to believe you have a good hand. That would be an awesome line to take against this V, because we know he's going to raise, because your line looks FOS.


by marchron k

This past weekend I tried 3betting him with the solver hand and took another uncallable $175 river bet to the face UI.

Assuming you mean something like A5s/A4s ... at low stakes mostly just don't do that. Also even more sus of your read on your own image as tight passive.

When the solver 3bets A4s it's getting way more folds than you are, V's will call a lot of dominating hands (like AJo) that solver V isn't even opening nevermind defending 3bets. Then, obviously, solver H is just playing A4s much better postflop than we are.

For bluff 3bets (depending on position ofc) I now lean more towards ATs/KJs/T9s type hands. They are just stronger in general, easier to play postflop, block more high pairs, and it helps to have equity vs. random 66-88 stuff if a short stack goes for it preflop behind you for a size you are "forced" to call after you 3bet.


by illiterat k

Assuming you mean something like A5s/A4s ... at low stakes mostly just don't do that. Also even more sus of your read on your own image as tight passive.

When the solver 3bets A4s it's getting way more folds than you are, V's will call a lot of dominating hands (like AJo) that solver V isn't even opening nevermind defending 3bets. Then, obviously, solver H is just playing A4s much better postflop than we are.

For bluff 3bets (depending on position ofc) I now lean more towards ATs/KJs/T9s type hand

I agree absolutely. Those are the types of hands I 3! light when I do it. You want a hand with good playability of similar strength to the hands calling you. There are advantages 3-betting of taking the pot preflop or on the flop a lot. However, playing a weak hand puts you in a difficult situation when you do get to the turn. Axs doesn't play well against decent aces, mid pps, etc.

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