Flop bottom set and everyone's ready to go to the mats

Allin. V2 3-bet, so maybe QQ+. You have outs against a straight. If set over set, oh well. So many people at 1/3 will gii with TPTK or whatever. Combo draws are possible on this wet board.

I don't like raise-calling with 77 OOP to someone in maniac mode when we could probably open limp with a hand with which we're looking to set-mine.

I might even prefer 4-betting preflop rather than calling, especially with the dead-money caller.

Yeah, if some maniac is raising every hand, then limp/calling pre with 77 is probably better. It is important to make the best play for the situation rather than worrying about looking like a donk.

I like this, provided we balance with some other hands we're L/c'ing with. Also like the 4! with 77 and the dead money in the pot. Problem is, we really don't want to face a spite 5! shove, and V is tilted enough to do it. We can set mine instead too.

AP, agree with deuce and I'm shoving this. If we give V1...what? Broadway in diamonds, pairs down to...88?, maybe some combo draws like J9 etc? All Axdd? Wider? all AT/KT?

And give V2...65s, 76s, 87s, 98s, T9s, 88, TT?? Would V2 rip something like QJdd?

Assuming no, Holdem Lab says we have...~44%, with V1 ~ 20.5 and V2 ~35. Happy getting it in.

If all V2 has are sets, 87, and only combo stuff like T9dd, J9dd, we're having a bad day, but they're wider than that, right? V1 is certainly wider.

I was playing 1/3 NL yesterday. 3 players got almost allin on the flop and allin on the turn in a single raised pot. The flop was KQ8 2-flush. I thought someone had a draw. A guy with K8s stacked two players with AKo.

So no way I fold bottom set in a 3-bet bot, particularly with no 3-flush or 3-straight on the board.

I limp in from the HJ at the normalist of times as per my style. But with tilting SB raising every hand I'm really not sure why we would be risking facing a 3bet by opening ourselves; much better off limping to encourage other limpers and then having more than enough behind to call the SB raise to create a great SPR to a multiway pot. As played, we're now faced with a huge raise so our IO aren't nearly as good. Still in position getting about 20:1 against a tilter, I guess I also sigh call at this point.

Against someone who is tilting and super drawy flop (where almost the whole deck can kill our hand or our action on the turn), I think I lean to a flop raise.

The SPR is < 5. I don't think we should be folding sets at this SPR, especially when we can build a huge sidepot with a guy we're likely crushing. We could be behind the shorter V2 (but often with outs). I shove to get V1's money in now.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah, I think the initial flat call of the pot sized bet is an error. Your hand is vulnerable and you want to gii on the flop. You want draws to gii or fold. The preflop raise rather than limp was also an error given reads.

I'm in the limp call camp in this specific position vs this specific villain. I'm not sure it's correct but I would also probably call the 3bet pre this deep against a tilted guy, although I'd be happier if we were closing the action

I think I prefer a raise the first time on the flop, but as played I'm shoving here too. It's too good a spot given the side pot opportunity....albeit I do think we're probably fading more outs vs V1 than V2

The only problem with limp/call is a good player can put you on a pp and like here when you give action, think you have a set rather than a combo draw. Here though, you might also limp/call suited hands, not wanting to get 3!. It is more an issue at 2/5 etc. where there are a lot of limp/callers and several pros. Pros might notice if another reg who rarely limps limp/calls.

Having thought about this, and coming to similar conclusions, we can do this with A9-A2s (32 combos) and 77-22 (36 combos), and be sort of balanced with potential nut-ish-making hands. Hands we'd like to see a flop with, but not necessarily throw into our bluff 3! and higher pool.

It doesn't matter that much what your limping range actually is, but what it is perceived to be. Here, with someone always raising, you could limp/call almost your whole range, and maybe limp/3! strong hands.

The problem is more at 2/5 or 5/10 when you are perceived as not limping, even though there are limpers, and you suddenly limp/call, it may look like a small pp. Then whenever you want to get money in postflop, regs can put you on a set.

Hmmmm...

Tilted maniac in front and loose-passive behind. Tough spot generally.

PRE - I'd open for $15, not $10.

To others' points, I think limp-calling is fine. I just don't know how often I'd find that play.

V's 3B is kinda big. We're barely deep enough to set mine. My stomach turns when V2 over-calls. Planning to be very cautious post flop.

FLOP - I don't think there's much we can do here. We're not folding a set when the tilted maniac pots it. But I think I might raise, not call.

When action is on us, I'm not expecting the BTN to over-call, and I'd think we nearly always have the best hand, so I'd be looking to pile money in.

BTN jam is wild. If our read is that he's capable of doing this with draws, even if it's only some of the time, I think I'd just re-jam when action gets back to us.

My reasoning is that we look kinda capped when we flat call the $175. BTN could be jamming with a draw, or some 2P combo.

Even if BTN has us beat, I think we're crushing SB, so we can make more in the side pot than we lose in the main. It'll be hard for him to fold now, when he'll be getting 2.5 to 1 on a call if we re-jam.

Result:

Good run-out.

Not that it matters, but even against a flopped straight, you're not in terrible shape with bottom set. You'll boat up by the river something like 40% of the time. I'd be more concerned with set-over-set.

V2 is WAYYYYYYY out of line double-flatting pre with J9o.

I'm confused. Why did V1 think he could take his call of your all-in back?

Whether he pushed the money over the line or not, a verbal call is still a call. In most states, the casino can't force him to push money into the pot if he verbally declares but doesn't push the chips over the betting line, but anything over the line is legally in the pot, and if there is no betting line, then generally forward motion is considered as good and as binding as a verbal call.

^ I'm technically not allowed to raise. I called the 175, then it went to 340 (actually like 338 or something) and the SB just called...so the door isn't open for me to backraise.

Ah, that makes sense, as far as the math goes, but I'd think his call falls under the heading of "accepted action ".

Even if the betting wasn't re-opened, if you jammed (even if not allowed), he called, and the dealer proceeded to put our the community cards, he's accepted your action, and he can't take back his call, even if the betting wasn't re-opened.

It's probably not a house rule, more likely they're going with TDA rules.

49: Accepted Action
If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount or declares call, the caller has accepted the full correct action and is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD's discretion.

Raise.

If he's balanced, he should be checking this with overpairs. But if he's on monkey tilt, that means he's stabbing here a lot, up to 100% with overpairs. Easy raise and GII. Tons of action killing cards OTT.

Ha, I didn't catch the fact we actually weren't allowed to raise over the slightly-too-short shove.

If I was the floor after the hand, I'd rule that V1 should have protected his hand on the flop and spoke up then, and therefore I'd let it stand as is. Otherwise V1 is just massively freerolling us (or is he going to speak up when he binks his overset too?).

As an aside, I hate the rule that states you need a 100% raise on a shove to open the door, what a terrible rule. For decades our room had a much better rule with regards to the spirit of the game and whether the all-in shove is enough significant action to open the betting, in that we only required 50%. This handles the obvious cases (~1% obviously shouldn't be considered significant enough action to open the betting, while ~99% obviously should be), and meanwhile everything bordering 50% is close either way (therefore completely fair going with whatever side the cookie happens to crumble on). For some completely unknown reason (perhaps math was too difficult for dealers?) our room switched to the 100% rule a couple of years ago. Blech.

GcluelessterriblerulenoobG

I don't mind a limp-call preflop, but also very comfortable with a normal raise knowing that you'll still get called light or 3bet light by the whale without the risk of it being a multiway limped pot. Obviously calling the 3bet and the presence of a loose passive player behind doesn't really affect that thinking.

Have seen results but no problem with how it was played postflop, close between calling and raising on the flop, I can see the attraction of calling although perhaps raising is more sensible on this texture.