PAHWM: 1/3 10 handed game

What positions are V2 and especially V3? With dead money I would default to 4betting, but as (1) you're completing the action and (2) you have a hand with nut potential calling might be an option. I'd be much more likely to call if you have position on V3.

sorry - fixed the positions for all opponents V1, V2 and V3

Guessing that neither V2 nor V3 are in the blinds? (Edit, didn't see the clarification when I wrote my book, lol.)

Some odd play right off the bat. V2's 3! sizing is such to allow them to reopen the action, should V1 shove. I don't know if V3 is aware, and V1 lolcalled off >1/2 their stack, so w/e, but I'd be really cautious. Even with AQs.

There's like 188-ish minus rake in the pot now and we've 560 back. I'm torn between just shoving now and at likely worst flipping with V1 for 275 or so. Maybe getting 60/40 or better if V1's silly enough to keep calling with AT etc.
(Assuming V2 isn't getting clever with a monster; I assume even buttonclicker V3 is getting out of the way for 175 bb more when they just overcalled V2.)

Or calling for 35 more with a hand that does all right MW, albeit we'll be OOP to the 2 bigger stacks. I'm assuming you called, and we're off to a flop.

The interesting part of this is V2. It would be nice to know if he has pulled out of his rack to play. If not, it could be his "safety" money that he's only going to pull out with the effective nuts. If so, it may not mean much.

If you call, the pot is going to be over 200 with an SPR of less than 3. While AQs is a good starting hand, I'm struggling to think of anything other than a miracle flop that I'd be happy stacking off against someone in this situation. Makes me want to play this more like a RIO hand. Therefore, the only option if you don't want to fold is to 4 bet. I'd make the bet enough to force V2 to go into his rack if he hasn't already. If he has, I'm just letting this one go.

Since it is a PAHWM, let's see a flop.

**** me, my bad ya'll re V2 - here is info:

Their entire stack is in 2 plastic racks one on top of the other, but both racks sitting on the felt. They do not have a "playing stack" out side rack and not one dealer has commented on it. I was gonna say something but only if they seemed to really be active. I have not seen V2 do much of anything since i sat down though - my read was lock down. I think they've maybe participated in 2 hands max in 40-60 minutes. They've launched some complimentary praise gassing up V3 when V3 dragged some other pots their direction. Couldnt tell if they knew each other outside the game or were complete strangers.

Hero has AQdd UTG+2
UTG limps, V1 limps, hero pops to 20, V2 goes to 55, V3 calls, folds to V1 who calls

Hero pops to 125

I chose a smaller sizing to not lose V3 but given my description above, it seems like I could have sized up and V3's sun running ego would have been indifferent to sizing. Additionally, this is the first 4bet i've seen take place. I habitually downsize my 4bets as they're uncommon and I trust my post flop sill edge enough to mitigate potential ev loss in sizing smaller.

V2 contemplates for 15-20 seconds tops and folds. V3 fairly quickly cold calls again, V1 is now all-in and we have a side pot of the 50 on top of the 100 from my 4bet.

($409 Total - $359 Main Pot, $50 Side Pot)
Qh Th 7c

Hero...

Pre is good. Bet now. I know it's a side pot, but I guarantee V3 is looking at the whole pot, so I'd size up -- make him pay to try to get there.

Thought we normally took a bit longer between updates? A lot of reg posters haven't opined.

Anyway, I do want to go back to H's decision to raise. Why that size? I'm stunned V2 folded, fwiw. If to put V3 to the test---since they're very sticky---why not 30% of H stack? Even though that's going to be less of a raise size than I'd expect from OOP with an overcaller.

Which leads to my ? to Venice: if we're 4!, to which size, if not AI?

AP, H's read is main V's sticky, H has top/top, no real redraw, and QT7hhc is wet enough to appeal to this V: thinking lead huge (100-150% pot) so they'll chase badly.

Does H think they'll stab if checked to? The read was unclear. I understand that H hasn't been there long.

solid points/good questions here ; i'm gonna hold off on my own response to all this for a bit though to allow some more folks to chime in if they feel so inclined.

re: quickness to flop when venice chimed in with lets see a flop i just follow in kind. I do think there's some merit to pre flop discussion but more around elucidating what really is best practice in a general sense maybe?

I just limp in but that's my style.

Really hate facing the 3bet. This deep for this price and a fine multiway hand I think we can probably call, although obviously meh OOP and SPR will be lol. Obviously a lotta dead money in the pot but dood just 3bet outta the rack (our room has a rule you can't play the blinds outta the rack, so a rack indicates last orbit, so I'll let you decide what a 3bet means in those cases for 99% of the population); if the rack is irrelevant / dood can 3bet a wide range, maybe then a shove isn't horrible.

ETA: Lol, I guess the rack means nothing. To this action, a 4bet to this amount goes 4ways every day all day in my game, so was that the goal? Or just to put in a hugenormous ~25% of our stack so we can safely fold without realizing any equity? As played, I would probably just ship the flop. He's not going to bluff at protected pot and meanwhile we want to protect our hand in an enormous pot relative to stacks / he can easily call with worse.

GcluelessplayingouttatheracknoobG

Lol, I can see (now) that Venice saying, 'Let's see a flop,' might look like a command vs an opinion.

From your read, main V will happily check until they catch, and often will chase dumbly until they do. Pot's 409, H has 455 back: a shove it is.

Hope you held up.

It was not a command, sorry for the confusion. It was more of notation that the Hero is not folding.

There's really only a pot size bet left. Even if you shove, you can't push V3 out if he has a FD on the flop. He's sun running and actually has about the odds to call anyway. He's not folding anything that can beat TPTK. In this situation, I check and peel a card. It is going to suck if he shoves, but that's what you get when you play a RIO hand. His range for betting is going to be wider than his range for calling.

Take as much time as you want to reveal the next action.

Preflop is fine

Flop is messy! I might go 75 and jam turn, but shoving also seems fine. If you check and face a shove, it surely can't be a bluff?

ok so i'm not gonna offer too much in the way of my thinking and save it for later.

but i do want to ask 1 important question here about my own presentation of information as an error check/correction moment - if replying, could you also reply with some semblance of V3's tendencies/estimation of range given action and tendencies? doesnt have to be a complete combo listing but something like an estimate on no equity / low equity / high equity such as 10%/30%/60% respectively say or more detailed if you think its beneficial. I wanna be sure I'm properly presenting V3 here and will comment on why at close of hand regarding why i took the actions i did etc.

($409 Total - $359 Main Pot, $50 Side Pot)
Qh Th 7c

Hero leads 95, V3 takes less than 10 seconds and calls

($599 Total - $359 Main, $240 side pot)
Turn Jd

oh dude not your fault clearly i took some liberty in my interpretation of your statement as well!

quick question about RIO hands though - when we classify hands that may be susceptible to RIO, I imagine the criteria for such is comprised of a few factors 1) the hand's playability post flop, and i define playability in terms of things like ability to flop nutted hands or medium strength value, potential for redraws or presence of factor allowing volatility shift of equity (eg. you flop top pair top kicker but its suited so presence of BDFD or BDSD potential recoups or takes away from the RIO classification slighly) and the second part is what i'd like to seek some dialogue on: Are we estimating potentiality of RIO classification of any XY combo against a specific opponents range (which would be defined by things like loose, tight, etc etc) or are we drawing our comparison solely against the theoretically better combos that exist by virtue of ... ?

so i'll say one thing here though during the intermission period -

What does V3's range look like given they cold called a 3 bet and a 4bet?

From your description of V3, he could have anything from AhTh to AQ to Jh9h to QT to AK to 77. Pretty much any hand that hit or could be drawing to the nuts.

I really dislike checking committed at this SPR. If we're never folding (we shouldn't be at this SPR) then in the game of mistakes the biggest mistake we can do here is let him bink a free card to move ahead of us (even if he folds that hand to a bet). At this SPR it is less about extracting more value and more about not making the mistake of letting him get there for free in a big pot that we're already committed to, imo. Also, his betting range in a protected pot isn't going to be nearly as wide as if it was unprotected (so way less chance of a check inducing a bluff).

As played, I really dislike the small flop bet and I also really hate this turn card, but we've got << PSB left. I mean, what's our plan, are we trying to check it down at SPR 1?

GnotafanofanybetsizemadeinthishandsofarG

To me, a RIO situation is basically this. You hit your hand fairly well but you're stuck not being able to bet out fully because the villain either has nothing and will fold or has you crushed. I agree with javanewt that his range is wider than a typical low stakes player, especially since he is likely now a fish on a heater. I'm less worried than GG about a FD. We have no indication prior to Hero's bet that he might have one and the odds of that are low that he was dealt one. The danger that he has AA or KK or will just fold his trash is higher.

ok ok - so RIO hands potentiality exists preflop but the realization of that of classification does require the context of post flop board etc.

i was asking not for some loaded question reason, but to just solidify my own thoughts from another perspective without trying to lead someone with indicators on how i interpreted.

If my first sentence is consensus, RIO hands exist on a spectrum pre flop - some have more potential to realize that RIO aspect than others but more or less almost any hand can fall into some amount (not sure what adjective is best to apply? perhaps "realization of it's RIO potential" similar to how we understand equity realization). runs real close to the idea of domination (AK vs AT in a 3bet pot etc etc)

damn dude, I'm actually really surprised slightyl by your line of analysis here and i dont mean this as an insult in any way if anything it shows me I definitely did not fully grasp your overall strategy via the things ive gleaned from your responses in other threads, which I tended to take as more defensive overall vs offensive. so glad to be wrong, and will definitely adjust my interpretation of insinuations from actions suggested in the future for sure.

i guess the question i have here though then is do you ever have any combos in your 4bet range from OOP that WOULD stab flop check turn (as default/most likely action if mixing frequency)?

Even flop SPR is 1:1 so does the same apply there you think? and could you offer more from perspective of your entire range?

To anticipate, i guess it's entirely possible your 4bet range leading up to the flop doesnt have hands that find itself here that are not committed once the 4bet is made, which also makes me wanna ask - are there hands you fold when 4betting to a 5bet shove if not?

I'm just not understanding how your range operates exactly given the statement above simply because if i'm at your table I could probably call your 4bets with a slightly more merged range expecting shoves or at least pot committment post flop at a frequency high enough to find a way to exploit given the IO offered in this manner. or am i misunderstanding? I'm just tangenting on the topic a lil is all.

As for pot size - yes it IS bloated but we started with almost 200bbs and are just above the 1/3rd threshold. The pot is artifically bloated due to V1's added overlay.

Regarding commitment, i interpreted the stack threshold idea and SPR to be assuming the hand as HU so the chips in the center were sunk costs split mostly between two players who were splitting the equity distirbution. the addition of the short stacked all-in pre villain I would add everyone at the table most likely considers to be a rather large underdog and close to having a range damn close to about 40-45% of combos (relatively speaking in comparison to a 4bet range A2C's at that point). Can they flip a winner, sure - but it would be on par with something like a miracle jesus might have performed had he played poker than statistically likely (slight hypberole here, let me fully transparent but you get what i mean yah?)

Yeah - i'm very close to this as well and its also why i stopped to ask about my presentation of villain because i do think if i veered too far in a direction it would render the conversation around the hand pointless and I wanted to make sure I wasnt doin a fruitless excercise in time wasting here.

that said - not exclusive to this specific villain but in a more macro description - the double cold call range for most rec andmediocre reg opponents (mediorce relative term, from my pov and this sounds real full of myself, at any given card table at 1/3 and 2/5 as long as that 2/5 isnt the only table and the biggest game in the room, 99% of seats are occupied by at best a mediocre reg)

But in my head range construction of this action ALWAYS starts with PP's 22-99 and depending on loose or passive tendencies TT, JJ and at the extreme QQ. But when i hear someone whining about how they hate JJ i only profit potential for example.

From that PP range i'll start adding some broadway SC and 1gap and maybe some things a little outside of it. But there's a definite and noticeable separation between the villain who also adds all suited Ax from A2 up to AJ say. I think AQo IP is a bit of an inflection point holding. BUt of the broadway 1 gappers and such I think you can safely handicap potential # of combos somewhat when doing the math but making sure not to let that discount affect potential board stuff. eg I say I'm gonna discount KJ by 1 combo, if all 4 combos exist post flop, and both Spade and Club have a BD draw say, I'm not going to remove that from villain's potential holdings IN HAND.

in other words, there's a the range assessment and combos we would build our math off of and then there's the practical assignement in hand.

a lot of this is developed off table though where you arrive armed with that variable math estimate (2-4 combos of KJs) so you have a kind of upper/lower limit on equity estimates, bluff vs value etc and can handicap the ingame analysis in kind. either adding or subtracting some number 'x' to the resulting take aways eg: villain has 10 value combos and 4 bluffs, KJs representing potential bluffs, we can adapt and pad or attenuate the resulting equity in a pot odds on the river situation having already done a lot that prior to sitting down.

I mean, I'm almost never playing this deep in my game, so a 3bet to me is almost always committing and a 4bet means stacks have gone in.

As for postflop, I might make the rare deviation from committing at SPR 1 on like QJT, but otherwise I think we're overthinking. We've made our bed, imo.

GcluelesslyinginthebedImadenoobG

GRUNCH:

Think I'd like to get this HU and IP with V1, and not invite anyone else to come along, but charge them more if they do, so I *MIGHT* open to $25. But $20 seems fine. V2's 3B to $55 smells a little fishy, as does V3's cold-call, and V1's limp-over-call.

It would take a very persuasive argument to make me NOT 4B with AQs here, especially OOP to 2 opponents. Think I'd 4B to $200 or a little more - enough to put V2 to a jam-or-fold decision, if I'm to understand he started the hand with around $600.

Fold if he jams, obviously.