Awkward spot OOP with nut flush draw

I'm all in. Don't love it but it I believe it's the best option.

V2 being a beginner maybe he's raising 8x to protect his hand but won't want to play for stacks with it. So feels like you at least have some fold equity

"There's a sports match on." This is most awesome phrasing, imo.

If everyone is this short there really isn't that much reason for a preflop juicer raise, imo. If I have to get in a pot with these morans I would just open limp.

I'm cool with the check (perhaps looking to check/raise against some weak looking bet/calls). Ug @ the action tho. We have no FE against a passive guy who just raised the flop, so I'm definitely not check/raising. The question is whether we can actually call. A call will hopefully bring along the fish which will help pad pot odds, giving us almost 3:1. An A might be good (although it might have RIO). We might face a lol turn bet size. We have a backdoor straight draw. These guys seem like they might pay off if we hit. My initial thought was that it is actually a fold but I think I've talked myself into a call.

GcluelessNLnoobG

First of all, vs. these guys, I bet the flop. As played, I don't mind a flat to keep V1 in or a raise to put pressure on. I probably just raise given it's less than 100bb and my A might be good.

Result:

two back doors and we need to basically make 3x 50 as long as fold if we dont hit gin on the turn.

if we pick up more equity, we will likely face another bet still and while its likely we'd get paid if hit perfect perfect for a sneaky back door hand, the struggle is can we get there? Are the A outs clean and if the flush comes in do we make the 150 required.

there's 90 in the pot now facing the 50 so we only need to make 60 more on the turn. do we have any fold equity to help ease our equity deficiency against potential made hands?

Situations like this in my experience really are the threshold line between going for max FE to overcome the deficits indicated. If we want, we can handicap the A outs by 1 or 2 even to account for possibility villain's ch/raise is only with made value like a set or two pair even.

Its impossible to provide an answer to that with what we know but I generally assume most players dont shrug call a shove with 100% frequency but im reticent to push low stakes recreational players off top pair/overpair. these guys generally wont release something like TT or 99 say to a shove on the turn.

given villain is a little shy of 100bb's its likely you can make up for the immediate pot odds deficit with IOs but I really cant say with certainty if say we hit flush on turn and bet if villain comes along.

i keep seeing people trying to classify villains as playing with perfect 4 and 5bet or fold to 4 bet ranges but described as loose passive or recreational player. or in another recent thread, villain never has a naked J and their entire betting range is nutted value combos.

There's a bunch of points made above that if qualified might lead to a response that performs with a positive expectation given the info supplied in original post.

i like shoving the turn but I think my perspective is missing something in order to suggest that with 95-100% certainty but I think i did allude enough to that being somethin advoated for in my response prior to reading the results.

nh btw. glad you got it through.

Bigger pre or fold, probably folding with these small stacks since our hand plays better deep.

Check flop is fine, but folding now. Stacks aren't deep enough for our specific hand class.

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Grunch:

PRE - raise bigger. Make it at least $15, maybe $20 if the game is passive and we have a skill advantage post-flop.

FLOP - with one opponent in front of us, and two behind, I just check the flop, with plans to call a reasonable sized bet.

As played, because we raised small pre, with loose-passive rec-fish at the table, my guess is our opponents could have every combo of 2P and sets, plus worse draws, and some over-played 1P.

We're in terrible relative position here. I can see a scenario where we flat the $50, and V1 decides to ship, committing us to call off another $130, unless V2 re-jams, in which case we're just torching $50 if we fold, or calling off another $190.

So...is our hand worth risking $190 to win the $100 that's in the pot right now (assuming they both fold if we check-jam)? If so, go ahead and jam. If not, go ahead and fold.

Alternatively, if we're more or less indifferent, go ahead and call the $50, with plans to call off the rest if they both jam.

I don't understand jamming the turn when the most obvious draw either V was likely to worry about gets there.

There was $190 in the pot, and we had $190 behind. Think I'd check again, or bet super-small, like $50, which isn't going to make any sense to them if they're rec-fish, but makes it hard for them to fold if they were betting / raising flop with any piece of the board.

But I think just checking is the better play. Let one of them jam, then just call. If the turn checks through, we can donk lead the river.

this is good question and its someting i keep thinking about wanting to try and implement on the forum.

namely: a differentiation in advice as to its realm of applicability / practicality.

example being: jamming turn because its likely villain's mistakes we are exploiting is an inability to fold value hands correctly often enough and given its 2 opponents there's an increase in liklihood one 'em is classifiable as a "religious type" of player who doesnt require evidence to draw conclusions and so will take us up on the ride we propose of "put everything in middle and see what happens?"

but i think in responding with this kind of advice, Im feeling like it might be more beneficial for everyone to identify and articulate such individual or specific intents of action, and, if they want to, also provide a more general "usually do this but given these stipulations, doing Y might yield more profit because of a,b,c etc"

All I'm saying is OP keeps posting these hands wherein he makes the nuts but finds a line that doesn't get him paid.

There's a recurring pattern - raise small pre, leading to being lost and unsure what to do on flop, because he's multi-way or OOP, then makes his hand, but lets opponents off the hook when he over-plays it.

I'm jamming AI on the flop, add FE to our equity, and we have a profitable shove. Our range on this flop probably has an average of 9-10 outs.

I agree 100% with this and would have just folded the hand as played. (I’m admittedly a nit)
Would have called a reasonable sized bet but if V2 is really passive I don’t like shoving against his raise.

I'm def. raising bigger preflop.

I'm fine with flop check.

After the action I think flop is fold or shove, and I didn't check flop to fold this.
Possible V2 has some stupid hand that shouldn't raise or call and we have no fold equity, but I'd much rather fold JJ than NFD here.

After we call flop, donk shoving turn seems the worst play without reads.

This board is so disconnected that V has a low set or some kind of top pair if he has anything at all. This is just a position bet 90% of the time if it isn’t some kind of top pair weak kicker situation. Punish that. Worst case he actually has the set and you still have outs.

Another thing that I don’t see being discussed is that if you rip it here you won’t have to worry about your opponents making thin position bets on you in the future. I check raise flops and go all in with pairs and flush draws all the time and I’ll get free cards out of position later because my opponents don’t want to bet weak pairs and get blown off their equity by a check raise.

A check raise all in here would keep your opponents in line in the future. There’s a non zero amount of equity there too.

Preflop and flop aren't that bad. Shoving the flop may have FE though. If you think there is a good chance the raise is a set, then the flat call is OK. It is hard for even loose donks to have 2-pair on this flop though.

However, the turn donk shove with the nut flush seems terrible. Particularly since you have the nut flush, you don't need to worry about another heart hitting. The only thing that can beat you is the board pairing if someone had a set. You have 2 streets to get the money in, so why not bet smallish and shove the river. I like that better than checking, because it is likely no one bets without the flush. When you shove, it is hard for anyone to call without a flush or set.