How did I play this SC in position?
1/3 NLHE 8 handed
Table is a mixed bag of loose passive and 1 or 2 nits. Not much going on. We can't get any value and have been caught bluffing twice and have rebought, just can't seem to get anything going. We start the hand 420$. BTN.
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LP fish who VPIPs about 80% limps MP, another LP and very sfwd makes it 12 from LJ, HJ nit asian man calls, we see 6♣ 7♣ OTB and call 12, limper calls. 4-ways IP.
Flop 45 - T♣ 8♣ 7♥
MP checks, PFR bets 20, asian nit folds HJ, we raise to 75, MP tank calls looking unhappy, PFR in LJ looks annoyed and folds and someone comments "there goes your overpair". HU IP.
Turn 215 - 4♥
MP checks, we shove for 330 total...
18 Replies
I like it. Preflop you can argue for other options but no big deal. Flop seems a great spot for a raise and turn card is a decent one given that it doesn't improve you except with the double gutter. You're probably not ahead, semibluff seems good, many better hands will fold, loads of ways to win if they don't, and worse (higher flush draws) can also call.
Well played.
It's not amazing. Hand and texture isn't a great candidate to turn hand into semi-bluff, when he can realize equity with position.
The line of smaller than normal flop raise, overshove turn is also a poor way to maximize value. It should actually be making it easier for opponents to play profitably against you, and cost you money when you are higher in range, hence seems unbalanced and opponents should correctly call you down light. Turn card is also a blank even though it gives you a few more outs.
Preflop is OK. I would fold. Could also 3!
Flop is extremely wet. You don't have all that much considering the board. I would flat call.
Like shove as played. Could play a set that way on wet board.
As played seems fine. Super unbalanced but you could get a fold from top pair or some pocket pairs like this which is what you want. Might even get called by a flush draw which is also nice.
I like that you made sure we knew the nit in the HJ was asian. Really enhanced the realism of the HH when they folded immediately with no comment on the flop.
Personally, I would have called the cb and sprung the first raise on the turn. I love being aggressive with a draw, but I often try to see the turn cheaply to make my hand. This gives more time to gather info. Youβre not really using your position as played.
If villain wonβt let go of his two pair then your overbet enters a race that you wonβt win often enough. By raising the turn it looks more like a value hand, with a river bet threat. I donβt know if this is better or not, but thatβs what I would have done. Maybe you gain info or maybe not, but I would like to try, before risking my stack.
Youβre using brute force & even if they suspect a bluff it will be hard to call, so it will work often. But with all the draws out there they may have already hit theirs. Did he fold?
I like that you made sure we knew the nit in the HJ was asian. Really enhanced the realism of the HH when they folded immediately with no comment on the flop.
Not entirely sure what Dash is sayingβ¦
But it made me consider something I never really thought about before. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but honestly, I donβt think I have ever played with an Asian player that was a nit.
Tbh, I didn't like it at first, then I fed my guesstimate of V's range into a calculator.
I'm giving V all Tx down to T9, and AQs-QJs in clubs. So no AKcc, but all other Bway XXcc. All 98s too. With that, H goes from like 53/47 on flop to 43/57 on turn.
Getting all of those Tx to fold that are beating H, looks like a good idea. Applying max pressure, and H still has a gazillion outs if called. I like it. Wp.
Not entirely sure what Dash is sayingβ¦
But it made me consider something I never really thought about before. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but honestly, I donβt think I have ever played with an Asian player that was a nit.
FWIW, I have. Younger lady, could still put OMC to shame. You just folded when she VPIP, unless you thought you had IO to crack her KK+/AK.
Observations of Villains' inherent characteristics might be relevant, but they need to be tied to some relevant tendencies that inform our predictions of their future actions.
It's not amazing. Hand and texture isn't a great candidate to turn hand into semi-bluff, when he can realize equity with position.The line of smaller than normal flop raise, overshove turn is also a poor way to maximize value. It should actually be making it easier for opponents to play profitably against you, and cost you money when you are higher in range, hence seems unbalan
This is always an issue I find myself in - when to just realize and when to turn it into a bluff (given that this is low stakes and they call a lot). My thoughts in the moment were:
-this is multiway and flush-over-flush is a possibility here, AXcc is out here
-the PFR probably has an overpair which I have great odds against.
-when the OOP player x/calls the raise his range is almost always draws or pair+draw, most of which I'm behind but with good equity against, lots of 9X.
-if I hit my flush do I get paid by worse? I get wrecked by flush-over-flush and maybe not paid by worse = better to gii now.
-I also have RIO to a 9, ex JT is in here.
My thoughts generally are more MW = better to realize equity and worse to bluff. But if I could figure out a heuristic for these kinds of spots, something that could be figured out in 30 seconds in the moment that would help a lot.
As played seems fine. Super unbalanced but you could get a fold from top pair or some pocket pairs like this which is what you want. Might even get called by a flush draw which is also nice.
I like that you made sure we knew the nit in the HJ was asian. Really enhanced the realism of the HH when they folded immediately with no comment on the flop.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I have sets, J9s, T8s, T7s all that play this way for value..so it can't be that unbalanced. And then you're saying top pair folds but a flush draw calls??
Normally I like a check back because I'd assume we have very little fold equity.
But we have a million outs, we don't need too much fold equity. Sometimes they call with worse(draws).
So overall everything is good.
Result:
Spoiler
I rip turn, MP says "thats what I should've done on the flop!" and seems very annoyed and eventually folds not showing but from his talk it sounds like a naked 9 at the minimum, maybe 99.
I probably fold preflop just cuz I don't like playing suited connecters in non deep SPR pots (which we're leaning to here) and I'm not thrilled about 3betting a straightforward passive opener. But I'm also never going to hate too hard on attempting to get into a pot for relatively cheap on the Button either, so ok.
I'm ok with flatting or raising flop. I think the smaller the SPR the more we should be leaning to going after the pot; with an SPR of 9 it's kind of inbetweenish, but with our hand equity and FE I think fine. I'd probably raise to an amount where I could have a chunky ~PSB left for the turn, so like ~$100.
I think turn is ok although I'd typically want closer to a PSB to give myself better odds if called. And I guess it really depends on what type of fish this is; there are some calling station fish where I'd never attempt this (although against even them we're sometimes actually ahead here so can't be horrible).
Prolly lots of different ways to play this but I think this way is defensible.
GcluelessNLnoobG
1/3 NLHE 8 handedTable is a mixed bag of loose passive and 1 or 2 nits. Not much going on. We can't get any value and have been caught bluffing twice and have rebought, just can't seem to get anything going. We start the hand 420$. BTN.---LP fish who VPIPs about 80% limps MP, another LP and very sfwd makes it 12 from LJ, HJ nit asian man calls, we see 6♣ 7♣ OTB and call 12, limpe
Grunch:
PRE - either raise or fold 76s on the BTN. Folding is fine. Raising is risky but defensible. Calling and going multi-way is asking for trouble.
FLOP - either flat call, or raise larger, at least $80, and $100 isn't outrageous. We want to get as much money into the pot as possible, as soon as possible, or generate max fold equity / equity denial.
TURN - I think the jam is fine, with all the equity we have. It would suck to bet half pot or less, brick, and have to bluff river for half pot.
Result:
Spoiler
I rip turn, MP says "thats what I should've done on the flop!" and seems very annoyed and eventually folds not showing but from his talk it sounds like a naked 9 at the minimum, maybe 99.
The hand is well played, Banana. My only critique is to raise or fold pre, and raise larger on the flop. If you do that, you'll win more.
Say you make it $50 pre. First off, the hand may not go multi-way, in which case it'll be easier to navigate post. But say they all call - there'll be $200 in the pot, and we'll have $370 in our stack. They all check to us on the flop, we can c-bet small, like $50. If we get two calls, the pot is $350 with $320 behind. It's just an easy all-in on the turn.
The amount we're shoving isn't that much different - $320 vs $330, but the pot is bigger, and we generate more fold equity, because that line looks more credible for value than the line you took here. V would be getting the correct price to call with 99, but more often than not, he'll fold, because it looks like he's drawing dead to 10 or fewer outs.
Alternatively, if we flat call pre and make it $80 or $100 on the flop, we'll be shoving $305 or $325 into $285 to $345. You see the difference either way - we win more money.
There's nothing wrong with your line in theory. Your hand has enough equity to play it the way you did. But this sort of board is so draw-heavy that you'll often get loose calls from better 1P hands, especially when our table image is that of a losing player.
And in those pots, you'll have to improve to avoid going broke. It's easier to get folds when we can more credibly rep strength, which we can only do if we raise pre, or raise bigger on the flop.
Your line loses more when they call and we don't improve, and wins less when they fold and we just take it down. It only wins more when they call AND we improve. Even when we have a pair plus a monster draw, we'd prefer to not have to improve in order to win.
We can't get any value and have been caught bluffing twice and have rebought, just can't seem to get anything going. We start the hand 420$. BTN.
There are a few things I could say about how the hand looks much better than it is preflop, flop and turn. Esp. about your reasoning for raising flop is why you shouldn't call preflop...
BUT I think it's a much bigger/simpler mistake to have been caught bluffing twice and then think "You know what would be a genius move right now, call 6x raises multiway and then start bluffing/semi-bluffing if I'm behind" ... that might work better at 5-10+ or even 2-5 where people are maybe more likely to expect you to calm down a bit after bluffing.
But at 1-2/1-3 there's so many players who are "I play whatever and bluff every pot" that I wouldn't be shocked if you got called down light.
Taking this exact line after you've shown down good hands or folded and are up 100 has to be at least 10x better than doing it with this image.