1/3 - Fun spot - not too deep (rate my play)

im done with the hand after he calls the turn. why do you care that you unblock spades when you beat whiffed spades?

I'm probably only considering raising on the Button here with this hand at a typical LLSNL table. But we got it HU in position so good result (if expected).

I'm cool with flop and turn.

I just check back the river and collect the pot against the busted draws 3xss. Tx and smaller pears fold a bunch on the turn, so I'm not expecting to see many of those on the river. KT isn't folding. Maybe we get Kxss to fold, but I kinda think that is the only hand we're targeting, so too thin for me.

GcluelessNLnoobG

He doesn’t beat whiffed spades with a K or a 7.

That said I am still giving up after he calls this overbet. The combination of winning a showdown against air and not value owning myself against any non-draw hand good enough to call an overbet means I’m happy to check back.

It's not terrible but I think we win often enough to check.

There's a bit of tension in our logic. We overbet the turn to get a less sticky player to fold a ten or 88 etc. Then use the same premise in case he has a K high fd. So OTR our bluff target includes fewer tens and mostly just KS or 7xs. Also KT is gonna show up a fair amount.

You could bet like 120 and probably clean out the 7s and some remaining Ts and lose less to kings or better.

On second thought, I'd add that if you have a pretty good read that this guy folds anything worse than 2 pair, might as well go for it.

I think most villain find a fold on turn w/o a K.

But a Kx that floats on flop is either Kt or Kx w/fd.

Combo draws/nfd are calling as well.

So a shove only make you fold out his kx fd, getting snapped by kt still.
I think we have enough showdown value on river vs draws.

So probably checking is best.

I think we have the opposite read honestly. As in he won't fold TP and even fish can see flush draws bricked. Only interesting thing about this hand imo is pre, I think it's meh at best and if we actually have SDV on river once he c/c turn overbet which I don't think we have because of what you said in your previous post, we overbet turn to get him to fold Tx and 88, we can't then pretend he gets to river with bricks.

Yeah I agree. I'm just saying there are specific players who would raise AK, tt, kk but don't understand that they should call kj here. Guy might already be visibly nervous etc.

Basically if you have a very strong read that a shove will almost always works it can be ok.

In general I stand by my op.

Can someone tell me why hero should overbet the turn?

Yeah, I really don't like betting the turn. Check it back and call the river.

As played, we should have the stack depth to get folds by shoving the river and it works well enough, but if we are doing it with this combo we seem like we're committed to doing it with ATC.

https://upswingpoker.com/overbet-the-turn/

Upswing Poker

This is When (And Why) World-Class Players Overbet the Turn

Here's what I think of the turn.
Most villains are capped on turn.
Villain will fold alot of Tx, middle pp like 44-99.
But villain can still call with Kx(KT/fd), and draws.
When villain is folding so much hands that beat us and call with hands that are behind, it's actually a good bet.

Now imagine if Hero bet small like 1/2 pot, villain might call again with weaker range. Also villain will check/raise a much higher frequency with his range vs a small bet compared to a big bet.

Imagine you were villain with a3ss, 45ss, a5ss type hands, facing a weak turn barrel, he will think he has a lot more fold equity when he puts in a raise on the turn.
When you overbet the turn, these hands can still raise but alot harder because your range is a bit polarized when you choose this sizing. It's often suicidal for villain to raise vs a overbet unless he knows exactly you do this with a weak range alot of the time.

So turn was probably either check or barrel big. As played on turn, I think this is the best line.

Seems kind of spewy to me. I don't like the turn overbet. Hand also has showdown on the river with missed flush draws/other draws. If the goal is to fold a 7x Hero doesn't need to go that big.

Passive player is also the wrong profile to bomb as they are more likely to have good/strong hands in spots where other players are capped.

Fair but he could have Tsxs or Ksxs that still might fold. What hands are you jamming river with if you have a bluff? What strong 2 pair+ hands does he have that he doesn't put it in on the turn vs a lot draws? Even passive players would be a tad worried letting the draw get there don't you think?

All bluff jams seem/could be spewy. What size do you like on the turn if not a big one? Do you still jam as the bluff on the river? Wouldn't you like to win as much as you can if you are gonna run a bluff line? Passive players still check/raise very strong hands like sets on draw heavy boards, but they don't like to check/raise draws or strong top pairs.

You probably want to start raising a lot of your suited Ace hands over limps - unless you start getting limp/reraised or 3b a lot and don't want to 4b. Building big pots with these hands will make you more money. Checking river seems fine, but we still lose to a lot of stuff that could fold to a jam, and winning $188 is real nice instead of losing it.

There is more an argument for this super deep. At shallower stacks (and we're not very deep here) there is far less argument for building bloated multiway pots with smaller SPRs with dominated Ax hands, IMO. (I realize we ended up HU, but it is unclear to me where we were raising from and whether this result was expected)

GcluelessNLnoobG

Obviously I'm the forum aggrotard, but I like our big bet on the turn. We charge the max versus draws when we're ahead. We give ourselves the best chance at FE against weakish pairs than are better than ours (and even Tx hands that are now second pair), noting we purposely dragged these weakish pairs to the turn with our weak flop cbet to make them fold on scary turns (and we can credibly rep this scary turn card). And meanwhile we have outs if we get called.

GcluelessforumaggrotardG

Okay so do with this info what you will and yes online and live aint the same but having reviewed tons of databases when I was still actively playing online + my own this is actually very far from true. Suited ace rag hands were not ''big'' winners at all and something tells me these hands do even worse in live poker due to the nature of the game.

But losing our $300+ stack is worse than losing under $100. This is really a read; will V fold enough that beat us plus hero call our bluff with worse often enough to offset the times he calls and is correct. Depends upon what hands we think he will call the turn overbet but fold to the river overbet . If solely the missed flush draws that beat us I think check is better. If we think he will fold a pair+ holding that was not looking for a flush the bluff is likely correct.

You would have to cooler the players in multi-way pots - so if you have a bunch of sticky players than over limping Ax suited isn't bad. I like to over limp small pocket pairs like 22-66 early position because flopping a set in a multiway pot is way more disguised than flopping the nut flush.

I don't play a lot of online, never really played higher than NL200 - but I did play a decent amount of PLO online small stakes. I couldn't beat it for more than $50 an hour though. At live poker you get so few playable hands, that I like to take advantage of the suited aces. It's also 8max and you don't get in 3b pots nearly as often.

I think most of the regs way over fold to jams. Think about yourself when you play - how often are you calling jams with medium pairs? Are you just gonna fold AT to a $65 barrel on the turn because a King came? You probably call that turn bet, and think i'll just fold if he jams. Maybe you don't, but a lot of people think like that.

I would give up on the flop if I bet small and got 2 callers - but the same strategy would apply if only 1 person called as the King changes a lot. Also 100+ bb is deep enough to start running bluffs, people hate losing their buy in, but will call $100 river bluffs. I like raising bigger pre to combat the high rake which is almost $10 a hand and if i'm not getting 3b enough, it hardly maters.

So the results after about 24 hours

I don't really like betting any size on the turn, I prefer check. But if I did want to bet, half-pot.

I would also prefer using larger sizings on the flop, which would allow for more naturally bigger bets on later street, rather than have some strange OB strategy.

If I am going to run a bluff line, I am generally going to use a more polar range with less turn equity and showdown value.

Like I said in my previous post, passive player was wrong profile for your line, as KQs is a clear raise preflop and maybe even xr vs your flop sizing.

If you think you can exploit this player by just jamming every river all-in and count on him to overfold, go for it, but I doubt there will be much theoretical support for your line.

This line works a lot from my experience vs many player types, but you really need to balance out the same line with your fat value. I am shocked at some of the hands that fold, and after you do this line a few times, even more shocked at what I get called with if someone is tilted. Obviously don't overbluff - but once or twice an 8 hour session it seems to be fine. I can remember the times it failed, but I feel like it has way more than paid up for those failed attempts with the amount of times it's worked.

I do like using it more at games where I play the same players over and over again - because you rarely play with the same players at 1/3 but people really hate losing their buy-in if they only brought $500-$1000 to the casino. At 2/5 and higher you start playing with a smaller pool - so you can build a bit of history with the regs.

Lol it makes sense to fold KQss.
It was a 1 pair hand he wasn't playing for stacks. I even have ppl folding Ax on Axx to my turn barrels.

If you think he doesn't fold KQss then it's very bad shove. Because he mainly has Kx/Kt or fd by the river.
Fd you already beat, kt wasn't folding, Kxss was the only hand folding.

PRE - think I might over-limp if I don't expect anyone behind to squeeze.

FLOP - as played pre, I think the c-bet is fine.

TURN - think we either check back to bluff catch rivers or bet small to recap him when top pair changes. Don't really like a big bet here.

RIVER - don't like how we got here. Pot is too big for our hand. Our hand isn't a clear bluff, and never a value bet. Probably just checking it back.

Nice hand. Got one through. Don't go to that particular well too often.