Repost: KJs in the BB facing five players

Folding>calling>raising. I say this vs the 1/2 population I play against. OP you provide no reads on the preflop tendencies of any of the V's.

A 3! would be a minimum 65? If you get called by one or both of V1 and V2 then you likely get called by one or more of the players left to act. Same situation with V3. So we go to the flop with an SPR of less than 2 or even 1. If V4 and V5 don't continue to the 3!, does that leave us OOP to V3 who is a bad but (aggressive?) player?

At 1/2 for me it is about leveraging positional advantage. KJs is a nice hand. But not in the SB with this configuration. I just don't see how we realize our equity with a low SPR and OOP to as many as 5 players.

We have a good hand and no one showed strength, so I would 3! or call.

V3 showed strength. V4/5 even though they are calling stations should have a somewhat reasonable hand.

I come from the limit streets so I'm not actually sure what to do with this. I feel like a 3b is rarely gonna take it down for you in this configuration. You don't want to be OOP to one or multiple players in a bloated pot. If you call you are probably gonna have to make a hand. On the other hand if you flop well it sounds like you will get paid off.

Pretty nice squeeze spot to 60.

Great squeeze spot. Prefer squeeze to call but in the game described both are good options.

Could be a bit awkward if one of the initial callers back-jams, and depends on Hero raise sizing.

I think I'd go something like $75 normally.

Against fish the 3! is for value, and Hero will over-realize equity post. No need to worry about saving the extra $10-15 if BB wakes up with a monster. His 4! range likely jj+/aqs+/ak.

If you're up against tighter players/ranges I would probably fold. You're just in a tough spot OOP and there are some fairly significant reverse implied odds when you make something like a dominated top pair.

If they're all looser ranges a squeeze seems good.

For those who say 3bet, are you calling a 4bet shove from V3? What’s your plan for the flop if Vs call multiway after 3betting? Taking down this pot pre or going heads up with one caller is a great result. But what happens in these two other scenarios?

Well V3 is described as terrible, so if he can 4! light or trash calling it off should be fine. We can do the math on if his range is tight enough to fold to.

If it goes multi-way, really depends on the flop. Generally shoving disconnect low boards, and 3w+ check/give-up could be fine too.

Some qxx, txx, 9xx flops for example should be ok to check.

Should Hero flop TP value either value-betting or checking could be ok, with checking sometimes being to induce or otherwise exploit.

What I meant in previous post is that its probably fine to give up some Axx boards multiway depending on how we construct ranges. I think we still do better shoving many low boards.

Results

Hero calls. The remaining Vs call. Seven-way.

Flop (60): Q78r

Checks to V3 who bets 40. Everyone folds. V3 mucks and scoops.

Guess I'm in the minority that says fold.

Not sure if there is a need to balance your 3 bet range on a table with villans described like this.

Are you 3 betting to 60? If hero 3bets to 60, and V3 calls heads up, the pot is 130 on the flop, with an SPR of 1.7, and you’re OOP. What flops are you betting? What flops do you check call?

I really hate KJs and KQs at such a low SPR oop. I’d rather 3bet 99 oop than KJs because 99 you can just shove all low dry flops.

Don’t a lot of pros call KQs here?

Calling is terrible, because even if you hit your K or J, you aren't going to be good against the field a lot. You're going to run into 2p a lot and you have to play it cautiously against 6 players. If you're uncomfortable navigating KJs OOP post-flop in a 3! pot, just fold here. It's definitely not the easiest/best hand to squeeze. I would squeeze, but I certainly don't think folding is bad. Calling is objectively a terrible play that is just giving EV away to V3.

Say you 3! if you're 4! jammed my default vs gen pop would probably be to fold, but that is entirely dependent upon the specific player. There definitely are players I would snap call. Assuming 1 caller, on this flop I'd lead like $40 and go from there. A lot of players will set mine or have random Ax that is just going to fold to a normal c-bet in a 3! pot. If you meet resistance, give up unless you get lucky and pick up equity OTT.

Yes, sometimes you're going to lose $100, but its ok because you'll pick up the $80 a lot on this line, and sometimes they will all fold to your 3! and you get $30 variance free. Instead, V3 got to pick up the money, and there's a really good chance he had nothing, but everyone, including H, played so passively that they might as well have just handed up the cash and skipped the flop part. Don't give terrible players easy free money. Fold or fight, don't limp in or flat call from the SB, if your hand isn't good enough to 3! fold it.

Whether it's good enough to 3! greatly depends on your skill relative to your opponents, it sounds like you aren't confident with it, so that's all that needs to be known for fold to be the right answer. But whatever you do, don't call multi-way pots from the SB. Calling is just being like all the other weak passive players who wonder why they always lose. If you're on the BTN, at least you're in a position to sometimes win with a bluff and to get maximum value when you hit. From the SB, you're never bluffing against 5 players, and you're not likely to get maximum value if you flop a good hand.

Pros 3! KQs here all day
Calling still +ev of course

Too bad you can’t join my minority that called.

I obviously regret not 3betting here. Even if calling is +ev, it’s just bingo seven way, and you lose control of the hand.

At 1/2, 1/3 the conventional wisdom is: rarely bluff, make a hand and bet for value. When you think about it that's just playing bingo like everyone else. The difference is that you do it with better cards than everyone else...

Yeah I was going to say I'll gladly play bingo when I have 4 bingo cards and everyone else has 1 or 2. Being out of position hurts the ability to realize EV but I'll still play this hand, probably for a call pre

[QUOTE=monikrazy] Pros 3! KQs here all day
Calling still +ev of course
[/quote]
I don't think your confidence is defensible. H has maybe 22%ish equity against the field, so that's $1.20 EV if we were all in. I don't think its a leap to assume we are going to underrealize. Especially since we're basically folding when we don't hit a piece of the flop which is like 60% of the time. I'm not at all convinced that V3 had the best hand, but he had initiative and position. Certainly, H had equity that he surrendered on the flop from the BDSD (maybe BDFD?) even if he was against QQ. And V3 easily has something like TT, which H has 28% equity against. But H can't even try to realize it because he is OOP without initiative.

Calling is a huge leak imo.

I don't think there's a great answer here, it just sucks to be in SB and sucks even more when it's going to be most of a family pot for 5bb.

Some of population will always have better but will pay off huge with AK on KJ2, so call>raise but not obvious where fold goes.

Some of population will fold to a 3bet enough that it's fine (would go bigger than 60 though).

Some of population will call it off preflop with worse.

If V3 is "normally" limping along preflop. ... I probably play it the same way or sigh fold preflop.

If V3 is raising limpers a bunch I'd be much happier to 3bet.

V3's flop bet is too big even if it was HU, so would assume he has like AQ+ that's playing face up and never folding ... or he's just blasting with air (but some of his air might be in front, and he'll likely continue blasting if he decided to bet this much into 666 people).

If we knew V was going to bet this much on this type of board then I'd lean way more towards folding pre. and snap calling 22.

Not really a grunch because I skimmed the first dozen or so comments.

I think most 1/2 and 1/3 players are playing for fun and willing to gambool when we raise to any size that seems "normal". If we're going to raise, I think I'd want to make the raise large enough that it's painful for everyone to call and then fold if we c-bet the flop.

So, I dunno, if the normal 3B here is $40, I might make it $60 or even $75. Obviously folding to a 4B (and cursing myself for getting OOL). Happy to just take it down without having to actually make a hand.

I just wouldn't go to that particular well too often. Even bad low-stakes recs can adjust to the guy who's raising huge out of the blinds. If we did 3B huge here, and everyone folded, I might just show the K as we muck, and let people assume we had AK or KK.

If we have to go to a flop, I'm only c-betting as a bluff if we're HU, and I'm c-betting big, then just bombing the turn, to force a fold from everything that isn't nutted.

Just to be clear i was saying kqs calling is ev, kjs i agree its not as obvious.

Not sure i am understanding or agree with other parts of your post. Hero is x/giving up if he 3! and it goes HU?

Kjs has 46% equity vs tt pre.