Jacks
Just sat down, new room, know nobody
1/3 nine handed / everyone involved has $400
UTG2 opens 14
MP raises to 40
LJ re-raises 112
HJ and CO fold
Hero on the button looks down at JhJc
Hero?
I mean it was a clear fold to me, but does anyone see different? What if it was QQ?
I have seen players make massive bluffs coming out of the gate. Is it ever worth it to call off (obviously stacks were going in) in a situation like this?
14 Replies
I'd probably still fold qq too.
JJ is an easy fold. Against an unknown player pool, I guess you can fold QQ here. In my cardroom, I’m jamming QQ. In my cardroom, some players will fold even KK to a 5bet jam.
If it was LJ open, HJ 3bet, CO 4bet, you could make a case for getting involved with QQ-JJ. As it is, this is a snap fold and not remotely close against unknowns
Reveal
All the money went in…
MP had QQ
LJ had AA
Board ran out 963JT
The first time I looked at this thread I missed the LJ bet and wondered what to do now. Much more difficult question imo, agree that with the cold 4bet it's an easy fold.
4betting will probably fold out everything that's worse except AK and get called or raised by everything better, so you're helping your opponent play optimally. But if UTG+2 is good, they can 4bet bluff any two cards vs. a flat, and it also defines your range. I'd probably still flat hoping the downsides don't matter vs. weak players, and then fold to a 4bet. If it's not a new table then it could be a 4bet or even a fold depending on reads.
Exact same hand, played at 2/5. First hand after sitting down, dealt JJ on the BTN. I see an open from an EP fish, 3B from an MP reg, and 4B from unknown MAG on my direct right.
I 5B.
Action folds back around to the 4B'er, who jams on me, forcing me to fold (duh). Friendly with the dealer. Told him what I had the next time I saw him. Laughed right in my face, and needled me about it at least twice after that.
I still tip him, because I'm a good dude.
This and a couple other recent threads have me struggling to remember the last time I saw anyone 4B-fold at 2/5 or lower.
It's not always AA/KK. I've seen people 4B/5B-jam TT-QQ/AK/AQ/AJ for 150-400 BB's at 1/2, 1/3, and 2/5. I've just come to the conclusion that I'd rather be the guy jamming or snapping them off with AA/KK than the guy jamming or snapping with QQ/JJ.
I'm not even crazy about KK here. With JJ, I fold and thank the dealer for not dealing me KK. Exception is if I'm sitting down at a new table in a MTS game - then you rip it in and find out if you're matching or getting matched.
Yeah, typical low stakes players will 3! QQ/AK etc. and then gii against a 4! when they are usually up against AA/KK. Either that or they only 3! AA/KK.
Oh, so you could have gotten it in against two higher pps and would have made a set.
I folded, but that was the hand.
I was actually surprised of the strength they held, and wondered if I could have gotten away from the QQ hand.
Thought I might have played the aces slower, but he got the money in, so what do I know.
I would almost always 3! or 4! AA/KK at low stakes. If they have a real hand they 3!, they will usually call or raise. You don't want to call the 3! and play it 3 or 4 ways. I have 4! and gotten a fold from a loose 3-bettor. Not sure what you can do about that.
I folded, but that was the hand.
I was actually surprised of the strength they held, and wondered if I could have gotten away from the QQ hand.
Thought I might have played the aces slower, but he got the money in, so what do I know.
Why would you be surprised at their hand strength? Isn't that why you folded?
It's low stakes. The original raise was from EP. That's supposed to be a strong range. Even if the 3B'er is OOL, the cold 4B should always be a strong hand, and at low stakes it's rarely worse than QQ/AK.
It's hard to fold big PP's pre, but it's not impossible. I've 3B-folded QQ when faced with a cold 4B. Not often, because it so rarely happens, but if the most likely scenarios are domination or flipping as a slight favorite, it's ok to fold after putting in 15 or 20 BB's rather than playing for 150-200 BB's.
Why would you slow play AA as LJ here? If you cold call the $40 3B, are you hoping the original raiser puts in the 4B? What if he doesn't? We're sacrificing a lot of EV. Seems like FPS, trapping in the hopes both of them will stack off post.
When we're only starting out $400 effective, a lot of low stakes players are just going to flat, because a normal size 4B is going to pot commit them, and they don't want to jam with worse than AA/KK/AKs.
I like LJ's 4B sizing. Not quite 3X, not quite 30% of the effective stack size. He's left the appearance of fold equity, allowing either of his opponents to think he might not call a 5B jam, and also making it harder for them to fold their worse PP's.
Because there are more combos of AK possible, or because you think hands worse than AA/KK fold more, rather than get it in?
It wouldn't be shocking to see AK. But it's also not shocking to see QQ, and obviously we shouldn't be shocked to see AA.
The part of my brain that thinks about theory and tries to use logic expects to see AA vs KK in spots like this, but the part that remembers how people are isn't surprised when QQ shows up.
As the stacks get deeper, seeing JJ and TT seems weirder. As the stacks get shallower, seeing 99 or ATs doesn't even make me blink.
It's low-stakes. They didn't drive to the casino to fold JJ+ for less than the monthly payment on a Kia.
