Line check with flop nut-flush draw

Jamming is probably OK here but I would prefer to just call. You really do not want him to fold a hand like KxQs or JhJd that is basically drawing dead here.

He might call hands like that anyway though. This is a great spot for you. Would be a shame if he somehow had a better hand.

No complaints, I like this adonson from the info revealed. He’s loose, but he’s got something. He sees you as LAG that could be fos on this jam. Makes bad calls postflop

I would target this guy too.

He might stack off with A9
In fact, a lot of hands you beat already like TT or JJ are likely to be calls. Worse hands calling and not many better hands out there.

Even if you are behind, you’ve got a couple draws to the nuts.

Jam is good IMO, villain calls too much but surely won't put any more money in if a 4th ♠ hits and he doesn't have a flush. Stick it in now in case he has red tens or something.

It's fine. I just hope he has a hand he can call with (and loses).

I would definitely raise more preflop but the rest of the hand looks totally fine.

Why are we jamming? Why do the pulling when the donkey will do the pushing?

Just call and let him blast off.

Because we want him giving action before a spade/7/6 rolls off and gives him an excuse to slow down.

Results

V calls and turns over 67hh. Hero binks Js on the river and scoops.

So we're turning our hand into a bluff? Why, exactly? What are we expecting him to fold when he donks for 2/3 pot on a monotone flop?

So what if he slows down on an action killing card? We're behind his value range, and only ahead of his bluffs.

This post is unhinged. We are NOT behind his value range—not even close. We aren’t turning our hand into a bluff at all here.

When we jam what does Villain do with all his JT? His 87? His 77/66? His 9x and overpairs? With or without a spade?

When I jam here I am happy to get called. I am not trying to leverage any fold equity.

Ya i think call is slightly better otf but behind his value range is such a bad take doc.

I mean...is there a 1P hand that donks out for 2/3 pot in a 3BP on a monotone board? Maybe there's some 1P + draw combos, when our read is that V is a whale, but most V's value ranges are going to have AA pretty crushed here, and we're hoping to make a flush if our jam gets called.

Just because V is a whale doesn't mean he doesn't have a hand that's better than AA here. He could be donking 2P+, because he's worried about seeing another spade roll off. Does he ever fold 2P+ to a flop jam?

Hypothetically, if we flopped the stone nuts, would we ever raise flop? If we think he's never folding, it's a great line for value. But using that same reasoning, it would seem to be a terrible line with a bluff.

If V has even a sliver of bluffs here, we not only don't want him to fold, we want him to improve, assuming his bluffs are going to be 1P + a draw to a lower flush.

If we flat the flop, the pot will be $277, and V will only have $210 left. When he takes this line, it seems very unlikely that he's going to give up on the turn, whether it's another spade or just a total brick.

If he jams turn, we'll be getting over 2:1 on a call, something like 2.3 to 1. Seems like a pretty easy call, if our read is right, and we think he's pushing with a range we mostly beat. Why would we want to jam flop and have him fold out all the hands we beat, and only call with the hands that are beating us?

I really don't get why we'd want to jam when a whale takes this line, and we're either way ahead or way behind, but have the equity to continue as a call regardless.

doc, the logical extension of what you are saying is that flop is a fold.

If you believe Villain’s range here is so narrow that raising is turning our hand into a bluff, then you must also believe that the only value our hand has is the redraw.

Unfortunately, since our redraw is mostly the obvious draw, we probably shouldn’t expect anything in the way of implied odds. So getting 5:2 on a call when we have something like 11 outs (or fewer) isn’t good enough and we should just fold.

I know you don’t believe that. The point is that your logic is full of holes, and you should probably think this through and find them.

I disagree that the logical conclusion is that we should just fold the flop. That's ridiculous.

When V donks, he could have us beat, or not. If he has us beat, a jam turns our hand into a bluff. If he doesn't have us beat, it's not a forgone conclusion that he's going to slow down on another spade.

The spade draw we have may be the most obvious draw, but it's not obvious that we are on a draw. We're not. We have AA, and can beat all his worse 1P hands, including his 1P + a FD hands.

If the spade draw is obvious, it's obviousness goes both ways. If he's trying to rep the flush, and thinks we're going to call once but fold if he bets again, the appearance of another spade should only embolden him, not slow him down.

Ironically, I'd think another spade rolling off would only slow him down if he already has a flush, and assumes we were calling with a draw that got there. But even then, given that there are three middling cards on board, it seems reasonably likely his flopped flushes are going to be high flushes.

He may not be able to fold a T-high or better flush, especially if he's got a re-draw to a straight flush, with a hand like T7ss. OP's read is that he doesn't fold enough.

For that matter, it's not impossible for V to have 76ss and have us drawing dead.

The reveal of V having 76hh makes it seem less likely V would let go of his hand on a future street. Our jam is repping the nuts, but he called off with no spade in his hand, which aligns with OP's read.

I don't think we need to fear another spade killing the action. I'd be more concerned another spade does not appear, and we're just letting V take us to value-town.

You don't want him folding if he is way behind. Once he donks large into the 3-bettor, he isn't folding, so get the money in now.

In retrospect, he was leading large because he was afraid hero would check back the dangerous board with an overpair, and he was afraid of another spade

surprised took this long, I thought 80 was fine but what do I know.

isnt Potting here or 1.5x better since it keeps everything we want in and we still navigate to a jam turn ?

what does a jam on flop do that a 1.5x flop doesn't do? does turn just shut everything down?

"You don't want him folding if hes way behind" / "he isn't folding" doesn't make sense. If he isn't folding, we don't need to worry about him folding.

If he's got a strong hand and is afraid we'll check back, or he's afraid of another spade appearing, then our jam is a bluff. But we just established that he isn't folding. So after we jam, we NEED another spade to appear.

To try to illuminate this situation, let's say we had AKhh, just a complete whiff on the flop, and he takes this line. Do we fold? If we're sitting here thinking he's going to shut down and fold if another spade appears, shouldn't we call, with a plan to steal the pot when he checks a spade on a later street?

Would we jam AKhh? If we think he's not folding, we shouldn't. We should call and wait for him to check on another spade.

It sucks when we have AsAh and he check-folds on another spade, but if we were behind on the flop, that spade saved us. We're not losing value when he check-folds on a future spade if we're also using that scare card to make him fold when we don't have the nuts.

It's awesome when he check-folds 76hh on a turn spade, and we have AKhh. If the counter is "he's not folding 2P+ just because another spade appears", then our flop jam makes even less sense.

I'd agree he's probably not folding 2P+ on the turn, when there's a chance his 2P/sets could boat up. And he's going to have a hard time folding on a river spade with the pot odds he'll be getting.

V's flop action is screaming "I have a strong hand! I'm not folding!" His next action might scream "Never mind!"

He's put 40% of his stack in. We should know he's not folding to our jam, and we should also know he's not folding on a future street, so let's not worry about it. Let's take the action that keeps his range wide and his bluffs in, which is just calling.