1/3 Flopped Little Flush vs Pressure

This is one of those "it depends, " spots. Against certain straightforward opponents I wouldn't fault you for folding.

That said, this begs the question. If you're not happy stacking off here what are you doing calling preflop? It's a 5x open. Really you should be defaulting to a preflop fold.

Please post initially without showing results. I would fold the flop, and it is probably also better to fold preflop. Can't get 500 in often drawing completely dead.

I think fold is good. It's worth noting that you're not even crushing this board; you have 58% equity:

whereas if one of them has a higher flush, you have 0% equity (not exactly but 0 but 0 if we round to full percentages). So it's not like you only need to be right 1 times out of three since you'd triple if you're ahead. You rather need to be right just a little over half the time, which seems optimistic.

Kinda hard not to be biased when I know the result but I’m not calling 5x pre to flop a flush and then fold the flop. Odds of flopping flush over flush are extremely low and if we are going to start folding flushes to a little bit of aggression we should be folding pre.

So. Fold pre.

We need a lot more information, but regardless, I'm folding 56s from the BB to an early position raise.

Now that we are here, whether to call on the flop depends on who I'm against (mainly BTN), so need some reads. Vs unknowns, fold is fine, but don't call pre 😉

personally I don't think the preflopcall is that terrible. 65s is a pretty good hand, especially against early opens. You're almost never going to be dominated, if you make a straight it could be extremely profitable, obviously if you make a flush and people don't go crazy in attacking the board you can win. it is a 5BB open so the call is probably -EV, but really not much. If it were a 4BB open I'd guess it's break-even, 3BB and I think you should call (just using my gut here, no math or anything)

I would much rather defend this hand than defend something like KTo, or A9o, or K9s, or Q8s, anything like that where if you make a pair you're probably dominated. If there's any hand that you can defend vs. a 5BB open from early position then it's... well it's the pairs, but if there's any hand other than pps, then it's probably the low-to-medium suited connectors. Maybe the suited Aces, probably not.

Telling me to fold pre is not so helpful as I play tighter than anyone posting on this board. But when I do get out of line and face this again, I think the consensus so far is the fold was fine.

In my games, popping the flop for 75 usually folds out everyone and re-raising another 100 means they got it. Just unfortunate I ran into a reg fast playing 2pair.

Thanks for the chart prim!
I intuitively play tighter, because I know the win-rate tumbles vs more than one opponent
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You triple up not 1 time in 3
You have to be right over half the time
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You could say I got outplayed (should have folded) but I win often with this hand. Straights, bluffs, & sometimes flushes, but this time I made a logical decision under the circumstances. Against one opponent it would be different, but against two with this show of strength, I’m out. Nobody seems ready to advise me to call here.

It is a better defend than all the hands you mention, but still maybe not a good defend. I would never call a raise with any of those. There are situation in tournaments when you can open them or 3! them. K9s is better than the others. If there are a bunch of limpers, it may be OK to limp behind or raise with them in from the BTN or CO.

Calling pre is what got you here, and it was a mistake regardless of what primrose wrote. If you don't want to hear fold pre, here is my advice: If you are a tight player and you decide to get "out of line, " don't fold when you hit. Heck, if you are that tight, just donk the flop.

Then maybe your hand selection is bad. I would defend multiway with 22 or A2s, but fold 65s. With 22 or A2s, you can make hands you are comfortable stacking off with.

Getting it in with 2 pair on flush board is generally not a good idea.

Sometimes we fold the best hand. I think given the action no is going to fault you folding. Preflop is fine, I don’t see what universe we aren’t defending an sc getting about 4:1

Defending our big blind? Is that a thing?

Preflop is close. However, the hand doesn't play well multiway and you are OOP.

My thinking seems to differ from some of you on calling a 5x pre-flop raise. I don’t think that way at all - that is simply a standard raise in the games I play. If you want to play a hand, that’s the entry fee.

So, I make moves based on many things, but being a 5x pre-flop raise is not one of them.

When I enter a pot it’s rarely out of line
Maybe it should matter to me more, but some of you emphasize things and like I said, I just see it different.

It really depends on what you think the preflop ranges are and if there's any info to be gained from the bet sizes.

When the PFR bets this large into a multiway pot, I assume he has a hand that he's willing to go with. When the BU raises, he's saying that he's not afraid of UTG's hand and wants to get all the money in.

Vs UTG I think we're doing quite well, as we should only be losing to broadway flushes and idk if a king-high flush overbets multiway.

The problem is BU. He has a lot more flush combos than anyone else & he's not likely to play suited cards worse than ours. I question how much of the player population raises two pair in this spot, or if they have A9o/A3o. I found it a little weird that BU only made a raise of $100 more. Would a flush really raise to that unless it's the king high flush? Could we make the BU fold something like a jack high flush or a ten high flush?

Here's my best guess with the ranges:

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: Ad9d3d
Equity Win Tie
UTG 29.00% 28.87% 0.13% { AhAs, AhAc, AsAc, 9h9s, 9h9c, 9s9c, 3h3s, 3h3c, 3s3c, QdJd, JdTd, Ah9h, As9s, Ac9c }
BU 41.95% 41.82% 0.13% { 99, 33, KdQd, KdJd, QdJd, KdTd, QdTd, JdTd, Ah9h, As9s, Ac9c, Kd9d, Kd8d, Qd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd5d, Ah3h, As3s, Ac3c }
BB 29.05% 29.05% 0.00% { 6d5d }

Yea I mean I do agree, folding is the more professional choice, and probably best EV. I just think defending is a slight inaccuracy, to borrow chess terminology, not a mistake, so I wouldn't harp on it.

@FC: It being the standard open doesn't make the defend good though. The main factor is how much of a discount you get for entering the pot, and that just depends on the open size. not whether it's standard. If everbyone RFIs to 5BB, then you should call a really tight range, if you even have a calling range. This is also why raising big yourself makes sense since people will make mistakes by calling too much.

Here's the thing: the only reason to call preflop is if you believe that opponents will stack off light when you hit a flush or straight. To justify calling $15, you really need those implied odds that you can get Vs to stack off light when you make a hand or that Vs will play passively and let you bully them off of better hands. So if at least one of the Vs is going to stack off light, or if the Vs are nitty and might fold a J-high flush, then I can get behind calling pre. The flip side of that is when you are flush over flushed, you're just going broke and when you decide to play a small SC preflop you just have to be ok with that. It's going to happen some percentage of the time.

OTF, I wouldn't be concerned about BTN having a flush. BTN has zero incentive to raise with a flush because BTN wants you to call too having a super strong made hand and the benefit of being able to ensure the turn never checks through. I think even LAGGY fish find a flat call as BTN with a flush here. So when BTN raises, I think its pretty transparent that it is 2P/sets for value and probably doesn't have many if any bluffs in this scenario.

The opener, how does he have a flush here? He bet 75 into 45 OTF? After raising preflop, he has a lot of Ax and his flushes will be hands like KQ/KJ, which probably bet smaller for value. $75 into $45 is something that I would read as weak on this kind of flop because the nuts want to bet small or go for a xr vs BTN.

To me, the openers massive sizing screams "I HAVE A BIG HAND AND AM AFRAID OF THE FLUSH PLEASE LET ME WIN NOW"

The BTN raise screams "I HAVE A BIGGER HAND AND AM ALSO AFRAID OF THE FLUSH, PLEASE DON'T HAVE IT"

And when that's what Vs are screaming I think we want to get the money in with any flush. Now, if BTN just smooth called, I'd be far more cautious, and I'm definitely not raising. I probably don't have it in me to fold, so I call and check turn. If everyone checks around I'll bet for value on blank rivers with a size targeting 2P.

So unless I have a read that opener is the kind of player that just bets huge with the nuts on every street, even when they are relatively invulnerable, I'm flatting to avoid pushing opener out of the pot. Come in, the water's warm. We want to keep opener in the pot with Kdx hands like AK, KK, KQ. Hopefully he shoves because he'll feel pot committed and we call. Or if he flats too, we open shove safe turns (non-diamond, non-pairing).

Yeah, I agree that the preflop call is only a slight mistake.

Also, maybe you could read it that neither has a flush, but the fold is not a mistake.

I don’t agree that BU never has flushes.

While it’s true that he’s IP, the fact that PFR continues with an overbet oop into 3 opponents is a strong signal that he is willing to get it in.

So BU has to decide between:
Raise now and most likely get it in with Pfr before a scare card can come and kill my action.

Or

Risk a scare card coming in the hopes that BB has something that can withstand and overbet and call.

The reason some of us emphasize these things is because if you're playing for profit they're extremely important.

Calling a 5x preflop raise here is likely a losing play. It might only lose 1/3 of a BB or something on average, but those small leaks add up.

These kind of preflop spots are the difference between being a pro in your game and being a break even recreational player. Presumably there are other hands you're calling with that are similar leaks, and it can turn your overall strategy from winning to break even, or from break even to losing.

I understand no one likes folding here, but the math is the math when you combine a large standard raise size with relatively high rake in live poker. Unfortunately it forces you to nit it up if you want to win.

58% equity in a 3-way pot is crushing... it is as profitable as being a 87% favorite in a heads-up pot.

3-ways, we risk $500 and we win $1000 profit when we hold. 58% of the time we win $1000 that's $580 and we lose $500 42% of the time -$210 netting +$370

Heads up, we risk $500 and if we win $500 87% of the time that's $435 and we lose $500 13% of the time -$65 = $370.

Same $500 at risk, same profit. We win far more frequently in the HU scenario, but the much larger pot 3-ways means that we don't have to win as often to generate the same winnings. A 58% edge in a 3-way pot is huge EV.

Obviously, we don't "know" that we are that strong, but knowing the cards, yes we are absolutely crushing it. We only need 33% to break even our odds are way higher than that.

I would never say "never". Vs show up with all sorts of crazy hands, but I think you can discount BTN having a flush because a flush has a lot of natural incentive to call. Especially a Kx flush. I think many players can identify that as a mistake. Certainly not all, $1/$3 fish play terribly, and some do just fastplay the nuts 100% of the time. But absent a player specific read, I think 2P and sets are going to be far more common from BTN as a population tendency. If I just sat down and have no reads on anyone (which is pretty much where we are), then I'm calling this spot, and they'll have to show me the bigger flush.

But I'm not calling pre without a read on at least one of the Vs. If BTN is OMC who hasn't raised with anything but the nuts since Y2K, well that's different.

BTN could easily have a flush and make OR pay to see a turn w/ his big diamond -- or with his AA. It's not as if it's a big raise. (I would not put OR on a flush, though.) This is why I don't call pre -- most of our "hits" are not to the nuts and we are easily put under pressure to make a decision when we don't even know our opponents' tendencies. Or do we -- assuming not, but never stated.

Both players could have a flush and be protecting against another diamond hitting or the board pairing. It is hard to slow play the non-nut flush.