1/3 Line Check UTG with TT

Call

Can’t see a case for doing anything but calling

call

Hero calls
(160) Turn 9s6h7c (6d)
V bets 84
Hero?

Reasons to call:
We still might have the best hand
We’re in position
Half pot bet

Reasons to fold:
Tight configuration pf, we raised Utg and sb 3 bet.
Typical 1/3 players start giving up on turns with air

Reasons I’m not sure about:
We have good implied odds to hit, but if we improve it would mean there’s now a one liner to a straight, so maybe we actually don’t?

There’s players in my game I’m folding and happy about it, there’s others I’m never folding against.

V is unknown but you perceive him to be laggy, so I think it’s reasonable to call for this size and see if he can put in the 3rd barrel.

Tl;dr: calling or folding both seem reasonable.

I don't like taking passive lines with moderate SDV vs Vs that are overly aggressive. Against an average player, we are just looking to get to cheap showdown, but if V is LAGGY and spewy, then we only want to call with hands that can withstand three streets of betting because V is going to triple too often.

I don't mind flatting the flop, but it's time to raise the turn. V will fold air and call with 8x and maybe 9x. Even a LAGGY player will have a hard time jamming this turn as a bluff when facing a raise since H has 99, 77 in range.

I think calling turn is a mistake unless you intend to bluffcatch river and our hand feels a bit weak to just call off.

Another idea is to raise flop for value vs random overs and 8x (assuming a "bad LAG" might have A8, 98 in range). Then if turn checks through bluffcatch river.

I like either of those lines infinitely better than just calling down with TT. By going into call mode, you're playing into Vs style. If his range is too wide and too weak to support his bets, punish it by raising, not calling with weak hands.

Yo. Call. The reason I think it's a call is that I think many people would get scared of this board and bet more, especially with a hand like JJ and QQ. Totally population-dependent read and could be wrong, but it's close anyway, so it's enough for me. If he bet 140, I'd fold. (At least against most players, maybe with your read it would be close again.)

I know the board is not actually very scary, no flushes, not that many plausible straights, but I still think it looks scary. If Vilalin is competent enough to rationally analyze your range, none of this applies.

I see no reason to raise turn tbh. It folds out air and nothing else. Targeting 9x and 8x with a turn raise is ambitious at best and I don’t think population raises those hands from SB anyways vs UTG opens. Especially if hero is considered somewhat nitty.

As played I’d probably just call turn and evaluate river. If he’s capable of bluffing I won’t deny him the ability of continuing his bluffs by raising him.

We’re also not protecting ourselves from any draws with a raise, only from overs who don’t have much equity anyways.

Don’t think anyone advised this line
Improved to 2pair, I thought the 6 helped me
There’s a lot of scary hands he could put me on…. Happy to deny equity, but he called

Hero raises 250, villain calls
(660) River 9s6h7c6d (Qs)
V checks
H has 370 left
Hero?

I probably would have gone a little smaller than $250. Something like $175 is probably enough. But I do like a raise OTT to slow V down and get a check on the river. If we call/call, V is probably going for something like $200 OTR and if we think he is FOS, we have to pay it. If we're folding river, then we probably should have saved $84 OTT because our hand doesn't have much chance of improving and I'm operating on the assumption that V over triples.

If V called $250, I don't think we're pushing him off anything better with a roughly half-pot jam (maybe exactly JJ?). And seems a bit greedy to try to get called by worse. Even if we were deeper, I'd have to know for sure V is capable of folding AA here to try turning our hand into a bluff. Check it back and sometimes we win vs a missed SD, hands like 88/55/98/A8. Other times LAG actually has it.

Two issues I have with this are (a) bottom card pairing means he doesn't lose to 97 anymore, so he's less likely to fold an overpair, and (b) the Turn bet is just too small, you're giving him 1:3.7 odds for a River call. If you want to turn your hand into a bluff to fold out a higher overpair -- which is not what I'd have done, but let's just say that's the goal -- then you have to think ahead on the Turn to how you want to structure your bets. In this case that means betting less on the Turn so you have a larger River jam. In this particular case, the only choice is to minclick it (which I never do, but with these stack sizes it's really the only option). Make it 168. Then Pot size is 496 and you have 452 left, so that's almost pot. This is still smaller than you want to be, so yea you just can't raise more than this.

As played, just give up. SPR is too small to do anything. I mean if you tell me you jammed and he folded, I wouldn't be shocked, but it has to work 36% of the time and don't think it does that. I'd guess it works 20% of the time, maybe. I mean the main straight draw bricked as well, it just doesn't make a lot of sense for him to fold to a jam now.

Yea, that’s what happened
I shoved, he folded

I have no idea what he had

Maybe should have mentioned but I had this feeling that he acted too fast on the turn
…..and then regretted putting the money in

I think people do this more than you think

So, I don’t know what I was trying to do on the turn, (just thought he would fold) but then I caught a good read

Or maybe I just got lucky

Did you shove river as a bluff? Or for value?

It seems like an incredibly thin spot to go for value and I don't see better hands folding.

Yeah not a fan of turn but river has got to be a huge mistake once we raise turn. We're just not getting called by worse. Maybe you made him fold JJ? I have no idea lol.

I don't think the point of raising turn is to fold over pairs. Trying to fold over pairs from a gambling V is not going to end well. I think the virtue of the turn raise is that a gambler V will have too much 8x in his range and might even get sticky with Ax. I see the raise as value/protection from random overs.

The river jam I don't get. Nearly 100% certain whatever he folded we beat.

I don't really understand what you're doing on the turn or river. Just call the turn.

But that’s the thing, I don’t think he called the turn with a better hand. I was surprised that he called.

I could have been so wrong, but I never entertained the thought that the river queen helped him, so why not jam, maybe he calls again with a worse hand like A9. And as I said previously, I had the feeling he regretted the turn call soon after he made it, so this time I was not surprised by the fold.

I felt like I was ahead and it was time to take the initiative on the turn - but maybe I jumped the gun. I think I accidentally won a bigger pot than I should have.

lol wtf @ raise turn advice in the thread. It’s close between call one more vs fold.

My issue with turn raise and river shove is that I'm not convinced he has these hands in his range. It's the same explanation Yami gave but population just doesn't 3b from SB with 9x(A9) and 8x anywhere near often enough and our ''read'' that ''Villain is unknown, but has been active, willing to gamble.'' doesn't equate to ''will 3b SB super light''.

The evidence suggests that he does have some kind of weak air in his range. Versus population - well population doesn't 3! anything but AA/KK, if we think that's true we should just instamuck preflop and that is the right play. I perceived the description as someone willing to gamble implying that V might be betting too wide. If V was gen pop, then its a fold. Are we calling for a 6 outer? We aren't getting the right price.

What are we doing OTR? When V bets $200 on something like a Q, are we calling? Or are we folding? Or are we just praying that V gives up?

Calling the turn is the worst option IMO. We lose less money by raising turn and folding if V keeps firing and can be reasonably confident that V is value heavy. And if we're calling to fold most rivers, we're just giving away money and when we do hit, V probably isn't paying us off because our hits make a 4 liner to the straight.

In my mind, the turn is either raise or fold - which one is right is completely dependent on V. If V is gen pop, then I wouldn't expect V to be firing turn with AK/AQ/AJ/88/A8. I expect genpop at these stakes to continue barreling only with QQ-AA and sets. In which case its an easy fold. V is a "LAG wannabe" who has been "very active", I assume that implies he is playing some suspect hands preflop. To the extent that is true, raising is better than calling because we don't have a hand strong enough to call a third barrel so we need to make it very hard for V to bluff. If we had the straight or a set or trips, by all means flat turn and call everything OTR. But I think our hand is too weak to call down and the only way we win river is by catching or if V gives up. I don't bet on active LAGGY players giving up, that's a bad bet.

Not sure that's what the evidence suggests. We may just as easily have pushed him off JJ because hero is a nit who put in a huge turn raise.

First of all that's not what gambling means in my book but even if it did I just don't see how this results in a wide 3bet range from the SB. The connection just isn't there.

Right so in your head villain is active, willing to gamble, 3bets SB with 9x and 8x but also entirely incapable of running a 3 barrel bluff. Does that sound logical?

With respect, the only reason you can defend turn raise is because of your pre-flop range and I don't agree with that. I'm really not sure what more there is to say. I think when we raise turn, we hope that he has enough 9x and 8x to justify it. Hope is not a tactic.

Right so the question really is. Is it more likely a ''lag wannabe'' triples off something like AK/AJ/AQ or 3bets small blind with 9x and 8x and then bet/calls those hands vs huge turn raises? I'm sure you can figure out what my answer is.

This was your original response and I don't think the logic here is logicking. If V is laggy and spewy, let him barrel off and make some loose calls. Like calling down TT on this run out. Raising is the opposite of what we want to do. Raising folds out bluffs, we want him to bluff.

takes guts to do but vs a lag i think you are making the most money by calling down a possible bluff and putting your stack at risk. that means calling a river jam.

obv if you are going to fold to a river jam you should just fold the turn. lags print by making people do this. dont be one of those people.

raising turn is nonsensical for reasons already stated.

I like the fact that we are not sitting OOP to a laggy player deep. Might be better across the table from them, but ok.

I limp in but I'm very rarely this deep in my smaller stacked game, so decent argument for a very small raise.

Never loving being 3bet but this deep in position, ok, I call too.

With the gutshot I don't see how we can fold the flop yet. I call and evaluate the turn.

ETA: Has this guy 3bet and double barrelled yet? This is just such a strong line that most players are incapable of taking this deep with air. I'd consider folding the turn against most but for this price against this guy (?) I can't hate on continuing.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Very weird thought process thinking we "improved to two pair" on the turn. We literally moved ahead of a single (and very unlikely) hand in 97 with this turn card.

Not really seeing what worse hands we're getting called with a river bet by showing this strength thru out the hand. So a river bet is mostly a bluff targeting something like JJ. We've only got a 1/2 PSB left, although it is large in terms of typical 1/3 NL $$$$s, but not really sure how much a poor player is going to fold better. We're good against some busted draws, 88 and lol sticky A high, so I'd check back.

GcluelessNLnoobG