Hit the nuts on the turn.

Not sure about the open in the SB.
Bet small like 1/3-1/2 on turn and river.

If villain has a flush, he'll raise it sooner or later.
If villain has a one pair hand, you'll capture max value from small bets.

Checking is fine if villain is aggro. But most villains are passive in general.

As played on turn, I probably bet something like 30. If villain just calls, pot on river is like 140, we continue milking it for 40 if it's a blank.

The downfall of this type of small bets is if villain has a set/2p/straights, we didn't get max value.

I would just see a flop preflop. Bloating a pot OOP with a very mediocre hand is very meh, imo.

SPR is 9 on the flop. Prolly a few options. I don't mind a small bet just to build a pot with all our equity. But also wouldn't mind a check/raise to get him to put in some money and then maybe fold better to pressure now or later streets.

I would just continue betting on the turn and I would mostly bet big in an attempt to play for stacks on the river. There's a crapload of twopair+ or possibly even pair+draw (notice how Kx almost always has either a second pair or gutshot) that ain't folding to a big bet. If he has a weak hand we are unlikely to get much more out of him no matter what we do, so target his stronger hands and try to get all of it, imo. So I'd PSB (perhaps even a bit more) to setup a river shove.

If the turn was a blank I'd probably just try to get to showdown with our showdown value UI.

GcluelessNLnoobG

This is the second time someone mentioned my oop raise was not great. I come from a limit background where this would be an easy raise. How tight should we be raising in this spot?

Postflop playability is a big issue. Oop is another big issue. Bloated pot oop multiway with a speculative hand is the biggest issue.

If you're good at postflop and know what you're doing, I guess it's ok.

If you're raising for 20, maybe something like ATs+/AJo+/KQs+/88+
If you're raising smaller, I think we can add a bit more speculative hands like all the pp, some scs.

I also come from Limit, although it has admittedly been 16+ years since I've played the 'ol 2/4 and 4/8 Limit games of yesteryear.

One of my biggest adjustments coming from Limit to NL was, in general, learning to say "I call" instead of "I raise" (admittedly an extremely general blanket statement, and not everyone will even agree with that, but to me it highlights some major differences between the games). In Limit, we're a little bit more free to raise since (a) raising with the worst hand only costs us a pittance versus could cost us our stack, (b) we're much more likely to realize our equity by getting to the river and (c) we have to jump on any equity edges immediately because we can't make up for them later.

Everything is "it depends" when it comes to NL (stack sizes, player types, our skillz, how many limpers, etc.). But against a couple of passive shorter stacked ABC calling station limpers, I might only raise like AQo+/TT+ and ~maybe AJs/KQs out of the blinds (which some may say is too tight, but everyone will have a slightly different line-in-the-sand).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Just looked at a hh where I clarified that I’m only playing this A9 hand as a bluff. Can’t bluff OOP, so it’s a clear fold pre-flop. This is a casualty of my FoR strategy, can’t raise, so fold. Helps me stay on TAG.

But you raised, likely because everyone plays Fold or Raise from the SB, except for a few on this forum. You could not play this hand optimally, but you did get lucky.

As played, bet bigger on a great flop. Small flop bets are fine multi-way, but heads up, in favorable situations like this, bet bigger.

Your Question:
One train of thought is to target 2nd best hands, bet big and win big. All the folds are offset when we win that big pot.

Then there’s the exploit - where you always have the chance of leveling yourself. I beat myself up when I want a call and get a fold. Getting value is the name of this game.

This thread:

OP: I have A9
Forum: FOLD PRE!

Another recent thread:

OP: I have A9
Me: Fold pre
Forum: Don't listen to the troll!! Raising pre-flop is STANDARD!!

Frickin' amazing.

Is the goal to do everything in our power to define ourselves as a TAG or is it to win money?

A FoldorRaise is definitely TAG. It is also most likely passing on some profitable spots at your typical LLSNL game versus your typical LLSNL opponents. I mean, almost every opponent at your table is a long term losing player in this game. A losing player. At LLSNL. Wrap your mind around that and consider how absolutely horrible at poker they must be in order to do that. To pass on some reasonable spots at getting into a pot with them seems, not great.

Gnothatin',justsdayin'G

I know we don’t want to play mw OOP but we should be at least calling with pocket pairs, suited Aces right? Are we calling with 56s? Kxs? Worse?

The reason you call with pocket pairs is because of the implied odds being offered to hit a set. Calling with suited aces is the same principle. You're calling in spots with huge implied odds in the hopes of winning a big hand. The odds are a lot longer for flushes, but that's a different subject.

If you're raising a weak suited ace it's because you intend to barrel and bluff on favorable boards where you have backup equity in the form of a flush draw. To do that requires position, and usually deeper stacks than what you're playing in this hand.

Preflop is fine as a raise or a call - for the love of Mike don't fold A9s in the SB after two limps (or open fold in CO for that matter) - but is definitely the least interesting bit of the hand

Flop cbet is OK but I might consider a check-raise

Why are you discounting sets/2p? Because button didn't raise flop? Maybe I suppose but you're still going to make your money from those hands and Kx, not random 9x hands or blöffs. You might struggle to get stacks in, I can't see someone going crazy on such a dynamic board if you check turn though

Being OOP is a thing that affects both our IO and RIO, so we can't just totally ignore it. But if any of the limpers are true marks then i think we should be attempting to see a cheap flop with them as often as we can, even OOP.

I'll fully admit one of my leaks may be having a SB overlimp range that is likely too similar to my Button overlimp range. I mean, I am getting a better price plus there is much less chance of facing a raise, but the difference between OOP and in position shouldn't be undervalued. Still, I think Axs / weaker suited broadway / pocket pairs clearly make the cut here, and then it is likely a matter of where you want to draw your own line-in-the-sand.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Keep showing me those spots gobbly. I listen to you. I have an open mind, just don’t agree with adding passivity to my game at the moment. Don’t take that as a lack of respect, it’s simply a different opinion.

I don’t try to beat them by getting in there with them as they will get lucky. I like the psychological edge of aggression when I come into the pot.

Alex Fitzgerald tells me that it’s almost always more profitable to 3bet than to call and I really like that guy. Still trying to understand your reasoning.

Am I passing on profitable spots or are you playing too many hands?

I would keep betting on the turn. Let villain look for reasons to call with either a smaller flush, dead draw like JcTx or a live draw like two pair.
Typical ssnl player does not fold a medium strength hand to a bet like half pot (would you?) If they folded it's prob a very weak hand you won't get more money from anyway.

I fold more than almost anyone in the SB at live 1-2, even to limps, I probably mix A9o depending on the table ... but I'm not folding A9s as a limp in the SB, even for 100% more than normal.

Flop I don't love the size, go smaller or bigger. HU I wouldn't try to x/r much, but it's fine if V likes to play wide pre. and bluff post.

Turn can do almost whatever you want. Probably just shrug and go 60, but 100 on turn makes it a little easier to shove river. Almost all the draws hit on the turn, so you probably want to target flushes and JT or even KQ more than K6. So while 35 might get called a bit more it's not good and while it gets raises sometimes it's difficult to 3bet turn and get called that wide ... so much rather x/r turn instead, and if he checks back it's not great but it pretty much means he has like KT/J9/etc. or even worse.

Fair.

But I still think you're missing out on some +EV spots. You could tweak it a bit, and use that preflop RorF strategy like 95% of the time, but then have a cheat time every once and a while where you allow yourself a passive limp (especially in a situation where a fold seems a little unreasonable).

Ggoodluck!G

Do not fold this pre to no raise.

Grunch:

PRE - seems fine.

FLOP - I usually check range from OOP when HU as the PFR, but I don't hate a 1/2 pot c-bet here.

I somewhat prefer to check still, because he can stab with a lot of hands, and his bet sizing will often telegraph his hand strength.

TURN - his snap call on flop is usually indicative of a draw. He could have an OESD, or a lower club draw. Some 2P combos are possible. JT just turned a straight.

I'd bet again. Probably size up to target all the inelastic hands in his range. Might make it $100-$120.

How?? When we raise, we want to have hands that can get value. How are you getting value with A9? How many bets are you realistically gonna get out of A4 when you flop top pair? If we're raising non-premiums, we want hands with better board coverage than A9. 98s is a better candidate than A9.

While we're on the subject, what is your opening range over 2 limpers in the small blind? Tell us please.

Total nonsense. I challenge you to explain how this is profitable winning poker. Foregoing value when v's are at their stickiest is literally the opposite of what anyone should be doing. It's so extraordinarily wrong, I don't understand how you you have been spouting this garbage idea for almost 6,000 posts and haven't been shamed off the platform yet.

I'm genuinely tilted now. How can you be so stridently confident while giving such obviously terrible advice? Your hubris should be studied for science. It's astounding

Where are you even getting this???? What informed this statement?? What "draws" snap call?

In reality, not your made up fever dream, quick calls like that are usually indicative of medium-strength hands with ok-ish showdown value. Something like KT makes sense. Not JT.

The flush draw and a straight draw just came in. We have the nuts. You want to bomb this for 1.5x pot because you think our villain will call with "inelastic hands" like "an OESD, or a lower club draw. Some 2P combos"

Look man, just because you'd call a 1.5x pot bet with T9 here, doesn't mean the rest of the world does.

Also, what lower clubs? Can you name some hands? The A, K, Q, 8, and 9 are all accounted for. That leaves JT. And what else? Jack-rag and Ten-rag are preflop folds. I guess V could have 76, 75, 65,....64??? we're really stretching here now. So that's what....maybe 5 combos from his range that have a club flush. And not all of them are calling a 1.5x pot bet on this board.

What planet are you even from??

Pre fine, overlimping would be fine unless BB is frisky, only bad play would be folding .

Flop I think I would bet fairly narrow range here so I make it 2/3.

Turn we have 80 pot with 360 behind. I'm inclined to overbet given how wet the board is. Like another ♣ and all his small to medium flushes shown down on the river. Another card to a straight and a set won't crying call even a smallish river bet.

I also accept the argument that we can bet small and target his whole range. Just when in doubt I'd rather err on the side of piling money in with the nuts.

Pre is OK if you are comfortable playing OOP vs these guys, you have some FE, and they are not going to 3b.

I like the flop bet. I continue on the turn $50 - $60. I want him to call chasing any draws or raise me -- we can only hope. I don't want to go too big and lose him.

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