1/3 ~ boat facing check/jam

Grunch:

PRE - your action seems fine, overall.

I'd already be wondering what it means when BB uses this smallish 3B size. Generally that's not going to be top of range. It's usually going to be QQ- and AK/AQs. It's a range that wants to 3B but hates being 4B.

Occasionally he has AA/KK and is hoping to induce a 4B.

FLOP - I was thinking this was a good check back, but I'm not sure. Doubtful he's going to x/r anything here. Think we could bet small, and if he calls we can check back most turns, looking to bluff catch rivers.

TURN - I'm torn between flatting IP and raising to start building the pot.

I don't think AK/AQ is going to fold if we make it $175, and I don't think anything worse is going to bet again or check-call a big river bet if we flat here. I'd probably just raise to target AK/AQ, and not give KK/QQ a cheap chance to spike a two-outer.

Then again, he could have been slow playing AA and is now just trying to milk us for value.

RIVER - I don't like betting so large when V checks to us. He's either weak and can't call a big bet, or he's trapping. I think we want to bet $75-$100 here, to get a crying call out of AK/AQ.

As played, it's obvious he's repping AA. But I hate folding a hand this strong.

Conceivably he has AxKs, or KsQs, or he's lost his mind with AdJd. So he has 3 combos of AA, and maybe as many as 5 combos we beat.

We're getting 2.7 to 1. I think we have to be good here around 27% of the time, and we should be good at least that often. We only need him to have slightly more than 1 of the five combos we beat to break even on a call.

I don't love it, but we have to call, I think.

Not raising turn is criminal. You just want to isolate the AX here and go for the maximum and the pots not that big because 1. you didn't 4! pre and 2. flop went x x..

..fine with it until turn.

River's a mess. Why are you betting large on an action killer? You want to bet the maximum amount where an A calls and a baby flush (not a big part of his range imo) raises, you missed value OTT and now you can have a lot of flushes.. I'd bet 155 OTR and call any raise or gii..if he has AA god bless him.

What range of hands are you targeting with your big river bet, when the spade draw comes in, and we think we have a nitty image?

How many flushes can he have here, when he 3B's pre, and the As and Js are on board? Maybe just KQss? That's just one combo. You don't think he's 3B'ing with KTs or worse, do you?

Is he 3B'ing A6s pre? Seems unlikely, but if he is, that's just one combo.

AJdd? Just one combo. Even if he 3B's AJo, he has three combos total of AJ.

What's the rest of his range? Mostly AK/AQ, KK/QQ, and AA, right?

Let's say he gets to the river this way with all of those combos. How many are likely to call an over-bet?

It seems unlikely KK/QQ are calling any bet over 1/2 pot. His AK/AQ might be worried we have AJ or the flush, so he may only call with the combos that have the Ks or Qs, and he may only call with AK, hoping to beat AQ. His AQ may find a nitty fold.

So we're targeting a super narrow range of AxKs, just three combos, maybe 3 combos of AJ, one flush, and one A6. Eight combos total. If we want to be generous, we can include some slivers of AQ.

Now, think about this...how often is he 3B'ing small pre, checking flop, betting small on turn, and then check-calling a river over-bet with those hands?

Maybe he does this with 1 in 3 times with any of those hands. Maybe only 1 in 4. We're hoping to get paid by 2-3 combos.

How often does he jam with any of those hands? Which combos? Maybe just KQss and A6. Maybe one of the others if he's lost his mind.

I'm not saying we should fold to his jam. I couldn't do it, getting 2.7 to 1. He only needs to have slightly more than 1 combo we beat to call profitably. I think we can hope he has KQss, and occasionally AJdd or somehow A6 or AxKs.

But we could target a wider range with a smaller bet. He's not folding any Ax combos if we bet $100.

I would bet the flop and claim that ace. When you take the FreeCard here, any bad ace villain has, now thinks they’re good, and they are.

You have to raise the turn…
Big hand, get money in the pot

As played, villain got it in for you, call happily

If you tell me you got away from this hand and villain had you beat - I don’t think I can say good play. The flush comes in, a six is possible

You lose to 66 & AA
If you can determine from the action that he has one of these - that’s amazing

As played, there is no reasonable holding that villain could have here except AA, or the one remaining combo of JJ. In a vacuum, this is a clear fold. However, in real life 1/3 there's enough of a "WTF Factor" that you probably have enough equity to justify the call. In this game there's always some chance a villain is spazzing out with AK or turns KK into a bluff or decides to play 67 "for the memes"

But all that was kind of obvious before you posted the thread dango. What actually are you posting this for?? This feels like another BBV thread disguised as strat.

The whales in this forum can hardly spell 4-bet, so none of them have considered the possibility. However, with the reads you have on villain this is a mandatory 4-bet preflop. This hand would have played out with much more clarity had you done that.

Also, not raising the turn as played is just inexcusable.

Where do you get this crap from?? "Induce a 4-bet" Is that even a thing?

"I'm gonna re-raise to 4.3x the PFR and try to induce a 4-bet at this "super passive" table !!" Has anyone had that thought at a 1/3 game ever?

The raise pre, check flop, go nuts is always aces

You're an idiot who doesn't seem to understand the incentives here, or how they influence our opponents' actions.

V is 3B'ing from OOP, over a $15 open and a BTN call. The usual 3B size here would be 5x, or $75, not $65.

When we open, the BTN calls, and the BTN 3B's, we're incentivized to 4B with our strong hands, to disincentivize the BTN from over-calling.

When the BB 3B's, it's supposed to be a really strong range, because he can just flat call, closing the action. If BB uses a normal 3B size, we can just 4B our best hands and fold all our worse hands. When he uses this small size, it puts pressure on us to 4B with more of our open range.

So, yes, inducing a 4B is most definitely a thing, dipshit.

Pf is definitely not a standard 4bet lol.

I think flop is fine. Turn should be a raise. River I'm not happy about it at all but not folding.

Who are you laughing at? I kinda think it might be me since I'm the only one who mentioned a 4 bet. But I never said this is a "standard" 4 bet.

You made that up so you could take a shot at me. You LIED for the tiniest sliver of internet clout. You have to live with that.

Anyway.....

Villain is described as having 3b three times in two hours. If he's only 3betting better hands than hours it means he picked up QQ+ in the course of about fifty hands. The odds of that are about 1 in 10. But he didn't just get dealt those hands. he would have had to have been dealt those hands, AND have a raise in front of him in order to 3b at all. So either this is the 1 in 50 times that the stars have aligned for our villain, or he's opening a hell of a lot wider than QQ+. So, as I said:

Talk about terrible advice. There are no combos of JJ remaining, when we have JJ and there's a J on board. You're an imbecile.

He's not 3B'ing from the BB and x/ring the river with 76. Not for the memes, or anything else. He's not x/r'ing river with KK. GTFOH.

OMGROTFLMFAO - 4B'ing JJ pre? You really have lost the plot. JJ is a pure call here.

The depth of your dimness cannot be overstated. It can barely be comprehended.

You're delusional. Demented. Delirious.

Oooh sweetheart, I can see I'm getting under your skin. You're just gonna have to find a way to cope though because I'm not letting off. The garbage you post cannot keep going unchallenged. I'm going to continue dissecting your posts and exposing them as the incoherent nonsense they are.

What kind of baloney NPC dialog is this?? Who the hell ever said that "usual" 3 bet sizes are 5x? What rule is that? Where is that written?? Who put this sentence in your rolodex of misunderstood poker jargon??

Let me get this straight.....

Your theory here is that this villain, would usually 3bet to 5x. You claim this despite never having met this man and knowing nothing about him. Regardless, you've assumed he's following this rulebook that only exists in your imagination. And he's deviating from the rules by $10 in order to entice an unknown 1/3 player (hero), into 4betting; a play that most 1/3 players will make no more than a dozen times in their entire lives.

You believe the villain here is consciously using a 4.3x size instead of 5x believing there is a material chance it will add weaker hands to our 4bet range?

That's probably one of the most farfetched fairy tales I've ever seen you post; which is really saying something. Congratulations on shocking me even more than I could have possibly ever imagined. Wow.

Right. That's why I'm suggesting a 4bet in this hand. How are you defining "strong hands"

JJ is the 4th strongest starting hand in Hold Em. Are you saying you're only 4 betting QQ+? How's that going for you?

I'm sure you don't perceive JJ as a strong hand because of your ridiculous and indefensible strategy of "range checking" as the preflop raiser. You have no concept of post-flop play, are terrible at hand reading, and are too weak-tight to ever bet/fold. So I'm guessing that JJ usually ends in a train wreck for you. Maybe you should sit this thread out and learn something instead.

Why??

You're clearly just playing JJ for set value. It's better if you go multi-way.

Raising our best hands and folding our worst hands is the response to any bet, of any size, on any street. You're just tossing together a word salad here that says nothing. You're an NPC spitting out memorized lines with no concept of what you're even saying.

Pressure?? How?? You're just making crap up again and pretending it's relevant? Why in the hell would we feel pressured to 4bet? Is that something that happens to you...ever? You feel pressured to raise? You know you can alleviate that pressure very easily by simply not raising, right?

Seethe harder

oof... you got me.....

I meant 66 but said JJ by mistake

I'm vanquished

��

No, you didn't. He's not 3B'ing 66 from the BB pre. You meant JJ.

So you think it's less likely that I made a typo than it is that I believe there are 5 jacks in the deck?

That's what you're gonna go with??

Ok, I don't need to respond with anything else. You're doing a fine job embarrassing yourself here.

I limp in as per my style preflop although I realize a raise is standard.

I'm having a little difficulty with the read. if he's 3bet about 3 hands in 3 hours, that works out to about 1 every 30 hands, which is a typical LLSNL tight 3bet range of JJ+/AK or so. And of course over a small sample size it is very easy to get one 3bettable hand every hour. Are we thinking he is getting out-of-line with the other 3bets he has done? Cuz otherwise, facing the quite large sizing, versus an EP raiser with a nit image, with no callers to incentive squeezing / equity denial, it's actually a fairly sucky spot. I would actually consider nit folding preflop, although getting 14:1 IO in position with JJ I understand why we're continuing. ETA: Whoops, I didn't realize the Button called, so more incentive for him to squeeze and size up. Tricky spot, imo.

Honestly, him checking this flop after a preflop 3bet is very concerning. You'd think he'd cbet air to rep the Ace, so that part of the range seems off the table. And I find in 3bet pots most players just kinda bet their Ax (ABC straightforward bet their hand) and even KK- here (which should mostly be checked but they don't know what else to do, see where they're at, etc.). Even though there is only 3 combos of AA, it really is just that a lot here, imo. So I'm cool with the flop check back.

I'm also cool with the turn call. KK- is going to have difficulty calling a raise and river bet. Obviously don't want to build against AA. So a raise is really only targeting AK, and do they really check that a lot on the flop?

I think the hand is very defensible to the river, but I really dislike our river sizing. At this point KK- looks to be the most obvious hand (I doubt AK is only going for one postflop bet / that concerned about backdoor flush), so we should be targeting those hands with a very small bet. I probably wouldn't go more than $75 to get some sigh calls.

Gotta admit i find the check/jam surprising as I think AA just keeps betting the river. But enough streets were walk like a duck / looks like a duck / quacks like a duck. Dood just shove gobs over a nitty player who overbet the river, also keeping in mind that when I see someone raise/call a large 3bet preflop I immediately peg 90% of their hands as QQ/JJ and yet he doesn't seem to care. Whether I'm good enough to fold here in real time, not giving enough credit to spaz, lol KQss (who didn't cbet the flop?), I dunno.

ETA: Obviously not surprised with results but there is also a posting bias. I just don't buy he is aggro enough to 3bet preflop with KQss and yet then not cbet the flop to rep the Ace. And when nitty us overbets for gobs on the river and he comes back over the top for gobs, it's just always is what it is... I think. I guess an argument could be made for odd AJ/A6 if he's getting out-of-line preflop, and I'll fully admit I never seem to factor in as much spaz as I should, but man, against our nitty image river sizing I'm not convinced.

GcluelessNLnoobG

To be fair, there wasn't much you could do differently here to avoid a disaster.

We could 4B pre, and if he 5B's we can fold. But that's not really something we love doing with JJ, and we're only folding if he 5B's. If he flats, we might still get to the turn and still lose a lot of money.

We could bet flop, but obviously he's not folding. We might fold if he raises, but that seems unlikely when he's using this 3B size or doesn't 5B pre. Not even sure we'd want to bet the flop if we 4B pre and he flat calls.

We could raise turn, and fold to a 3B. There again, he may not 3B.

We could and should bet smaller on the river. I'm not sure if we could or should fold to a x/r when we let him get to the river with worse hands that might raise. We'd need a very reliable read that he never x/r's a worse value hand.

The only other thing we could do is check back the river, which is leaving a lot of money on the table vs all his AX combos and KQss.

As played, I don't know if I could fold given the pot odds. We only need to find 1 + a tiny sliver of worse combos to make calling correct.

I wouldn't beat yourself up for calling when you only lose to 3xAA and 1x66, and he might have KQss or slivers of A6dd/AJdd, and maybe he does this with AxKs. Hell, he might occasionally get to the river this way with 33.

When he checks flop, bets turn small, and then checks river, it's hard to credit him going for a x/r with nutted value but not going for an x/r with worse value or some SDV he decides he needs to turn into a bluff when we don't check back.

You mocked me for suggesting 66 would be 3bet pre, But now you want us to believe he donked the turn with 3's

Exhibit #532929505 that proves there is no reason, logic, or coherent strategy behind what you post.

You'll just say whatever words pop into your head in the moment.

The presence of the limper definitely makes this more of a 4bet spot but I'd still mostly call this preflop - even with the button call BB will be squeezing pretty tight here after an EP open.

Flop check back is normal. OOP isn't automatically cbetting here, not even with an Ace. He can be checking for balance or with a weak Ace or just to keep the pot small OOP when most turn cards won't change anything so he can make a delayed cbet.

You've got to raise the turn though, particularly when the flush draws appears, you'd be raising with combo draws here a lot (albeit 3 combos)

River, does BB ever turn a hand like KsK into a bluff here? Ever overvalue a 6? How often do we see a flush? The description of BB doesn't make them sound like a grand master but if they know anything about river CR bluffs it's generally that you want to turn a hand with SD value into a bluff and there are plenty of hands there (Ax, KK, QQ all of which might be happy to see the river go check-check).

I don't know, I'm not folding what's very close to the nuts here. Price isn't bad and there are enough weird things whether worse value or bluffs/randomness to justify a call, at least enough to make it not a terrible call. I'll be far more tilted if I fold this and get shown 76, KK or a flush than I do if I call and lose, although of course that's not the correct approach to things. The counter argument is that this looks like an obvious AA and it's a hard argument to overcome, so folding can't be awful at all, it's probably close. But main mistake to me looks like not raising turn

The river might be a fold. It looks like a slow play. When he shoves after you overbet, it looks strong. Plus a lot of people at 1/3 only 3! KK+ or whatever.

Really hard to fold 3rd nuts, especially getting 2.7-1. Hard to fold set over set even with a low set. Definitely a cooler and you are going to lose a lot regardless.

His flop checked really worked, letting you catch up.

Your lack of comprehension for what appears to be your native language continues to astound.

You should invest in a dictionary, and look up the meaning of the words "unlikely", "might", and "occasionally".

If I was sure you'd know what the word meant, I'd say you should be embarrassed.

cope harder