Top pair plus backdoors facing huge action from two fish

Not sure, but think you’re gambling if you get involved. AJ, and sets have you crushed, kinda a flip with flush draws. Still, lot of weak draws QJ, T9, 87, KQ - but do they jack it up with these kinda hands?

The kicker to me is being up against two strong ranges. Your odds would increase heads-up. Money talks, but not exactly sure what it’s saying this time.

I do think trusting your instincts is vital in this game. This spot is close enough that may be enough to sway your decision.

Sounds like you want a call from the sb if you shove and you may be right.

Thanks for the input. I agree it's a spot where continuing is agreeing to gamble with these two guys plus the $170ish that is dead in the middle.

I also agree that it's an instincts and reads-based spot more so than a strategy spot, and for that reason it may not be a great hand to post a 2p2 thread about.

I was definitely thinking about it as a "shove or fold" spot where we are almost guaranteed to get a call from the SB, whose range will likely be much wider than just nuts and nutted draws. The key to the hand is how wide SB is snap-shoving. He always has a ton of equity, but if his whole range is hands like J9s and 44 for value and monster draws like AXcc or QTcc, then I should probably just fold.

I just sigh-fold. If we are ahead, which is rare, we are fading a lot of cards.

Typically the modern button-clicker knows better than to go crazy in 5 way pots vs. hero's completely uncapped range and there's 2 of them here. I fold and don't worry about it regardless of the result.

I don't like our seat (two to the right of the difficult guy, non-short) so I hope we have a seat change button.

Lol, one of my forum pet peeves is when someone uses the term "iso" = "isolate"... and then we go 5ways to the flop (lol, standard). A preflop raise rarely "isolates". Not hatin', just sayin'. I mean, I'm guessing we're not expecting this result (?), but in the end it creates a very multiway bloated pot with an SPR of 3.4 (which isn't what I'm aiming for with this hand). With this in mind, I'd prefer an overlimp.

I mean, I do everything in my power to avoid these spots. A small handcuffing SPR on the flop where we'll be facing commitment decisions immediately, won't be able to get a feel for what is going on over multiple streets, everyone (at least our stack+) got pretty decent IO preflop of 22+:1, etc.

I think overall I bet/fold when checked to me in LP against a single raise. When two players announce they like their hand enough to likely play for stacks then the stars would really have to align for us to have required equity, imo.

ETA: In some ways, our opponents kinda made it easy on us if one of them flopped a monster. Imagine the mess we're in if they just call. The pot will be $260 and we'll have just $380 (= 1.5 PSB) left. What's our turn plan? I'll admit I sometimes make it too easy with my sets here too... and yet thankfully my opponents will often consider continuing with many more hands than I would in their shoes.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Thanks for the thoughtful response! I agree with you and other posters that this spot is probably just a standard bet-fold, but especially appreciate the additional input.

I generally don't seat change (would sooner table change or just pick up) just to get position on a certain player, but I fully agree that my seat was one of the worst at this table.

And of course, I use the term "iso-" to refer to any raise over a limp, but I certainly get your second point.

I think I probably check back blank turns if I get called on flop in multiple spots, but it's clearly not ideal given how many draws are present.

I played 1/3 at Philly Live.

My experience there was that they love to limp / hate to fold pre, and very few have any sort of 3B+ range. It makes the game somewhat frustrating if you're trying to play "correctly".

PRE - I might have made this $30 in that game. You kind of have to go huge if you want anyone to fold. Otherwise, you'll be going eleventeen ways to the flop.

FLOP - I expect to get check-raised on these boards close to 100% of the time. I'd probably just check and hope it checks through.

As played, I think SB has you beat. You said SB snap shoved, but I assume you meant BB. When he snap shoves and shows his cards to his neighbors, I'm guessing that's 2P or a set for value, or a draw. My money would be on a draw. QTcc, T8cc, something in that neighborhood.

That game is basically degen Bingo.

If you're up against AJ and a combo draw, I think you're around a 25% dog, so you need 3:1 if there would be no more betting. Unfortunately, you're getting less than 3:1, and there will almost certainly be more betting.

You probably have 2 clean outs in the non-club K's. If either of them has a set, you're drawing close to dead, and need to go runner-runner.

No, I don't think you have the equity. And you definitely don't have any fold equity here.

Forgot to respond, but this post is basically right on the money.

Oof.

Next time you're in Philly, check out Parx. It's just barely outside the city limits to the north. Easily accessible from the highway if you're headed up to NE.

Compared to Live, the BI cap is higher, and they only allow one straddle, and only from UTG. None of that MS or BTN straddle BS.

It's 9-handed rather than 8 handed, FWIW. I guess it makes the game cheaper to sit in, so long as you're not at a table with multiple a-holes constantly up walking around or outside smoking.

I think the player pool is slightly better at Parx than Live, but the games are still very beatable. There seems to be a large Indian population nearby, and they are generally good for the game.

The lower buy in and other game differences at Live made it hard to enjoy playing there. It didn't help that my first time was the same night as the Taylor Swift concert at the stadium next door, and they whacked me for $30 just to park in their piss-scented lot.

Rivers had the softest low stakes games in the area, but I've heard their card room is dead recently, and all the people who like to play in the city moved over to Live. If you're already in the city proper, you might want to check it out. The room is small, but I always thought it was well-run. It's been a couple years since I was there, so don't shoot the messenger if you go in and it sucks.

Yeah, not the best hand I have ever played.

I have always wanted to check out Parx, but I am usually in Philadelphia without a car (I take the train down from New Haven) and Parx has horrifically bad transit connections. Live is walkable to the Broad Street Line, and I also happened to be staying in South Philly for the basketball games, which are also walkable.

To be completely honest, I forgot that Rivers existed. It would have been an easy stop. I had a free day the weekend that I was down there, but I ended up taking the train to Atlantic City for a night and hitting the rooms out there. I will probably get to Rivers at some point this summer or fall, as Philly continues to be a really fun and convenient spot to visit for poker and non-poker-related reasons.

I'd offer you a ride to Parx, but I ain't driving into the city to pick you up.

I know local transit has bus routes that pass right by it. Not sure about rail. Our local transit has been a $hlt-show for years. I wouldn't want to ride the bus. Not a fan of the trains, either. If you're arriving at 30th St station, Rivers is closer than Live, so it's a shorter ride, but probably not by much, maybe only 5 minutes.

There's an Amtrak station in North Philly. Literally an 11 minute drive to Parx. Get an Uber. 2198 Hornig Rd, Philadelphia, PA 19116

Before I moved into a new house, I was splitting my sessions between Rivers and Parx. Rivers was a nicer drive, has better comps, and softer games. Buy-in is the same. Rivers is 8-handed, and you can straddle from anywhere including the BTN, which is annoying as $hlt. The player pool is more local. It can be a cast of characters, with a high percentage of a-holes.

Parx is 9-handed. Only UTG straddle. Better promos / bigger bad beat jackpot, which tends to bring in the fish. Also a lot of players from the NY metro area (fair share of a-holes), but generally a slightly better atmosphere.

I've seen regs do some crazy $hlt at Rivers. Not so much at Parx.

Without going too deep on transit stuff (my wife and I are both city planners and huge transit nerds) I will say that none of the local bus routes that hit Parx go directly to Center City, Philadelphia, so you need to take at least one transfer. When I looked at Google Maps, I think Parx was a thirty minute drive and a 90-minute transit trip, which is pretty abysmal. A lot of other comparable urban casinos will offer shuttle service to transit lines, but I am guessing Parx is ceding the car-less urbanite market to Rivers and Live. I did look at North Philly and some of the West Trenton line stops, but I am not a big fan of Uber/Lyft for multiple reasons and they aren't really walkable.

I will also say that I love playing with crazy degen gamblers, haha. My usual room (Mohegan Sun in Connecticut) is largely filled with nit regs, short stackers, and retirees, so getting a chance to play with some true freaks is a nice vacation, haha.

Well... hypothetically, if you did arrive at the Amtrak station near Parx, and I was going to play, I could pick you up.

I could probably make my in-car presence bearable for the ten minute drive. I'll turn the music down, and I won't smoke. I could dial back on the aggressive driving.

Naw, screw it. You'll listen to my music and you'll like it.

You'll be on your own for getting from Parx to a hotel, so you're back to Uber, unless you're into hitchhiking.