Deep with QQ on graveyard shift

how would you play AK on turn?

I would bet turn with AK, so would bet turn here. 500 ish. a 3am LAG on a downswing never has KK and AA...does he even have JJ?

as played I would be tempted to bet small on river to induce some spazz

just bet the turn so you have a reasonable amount to jam river.

I thought I see a lot of action, but over 500 in the pot on the flop playing 1/3 6handed is wild.

You might as well check the flop, as cbet that small. I sit here amazed that 2players called an 185 pre-flop 4Bet. This is AA & KK in my games, but I get the feeling these guys could have suited aces or connectors and maybe even small pairs & paint. Still you put no pressure on them.

Your game is different, but I’d be squirming when 2 called my 4Bet. At this point, I would try to get to the river as cheaply as possible with doubt that I was ahead. So, range these guys for me - do you think you’re ahead?

If you slowed down because you think they have AA, KK or a 5, I understand. You have 2players very involved, I’d at least test them by cbetting closer to half pot. With v over 2k deep; it seems a shame not to go after it.

I can’t understand your reasoning for checking the turn with thick value. Though I might still bet, I could understand checking if an ace or king flopped. But you crush top pair and have opponents willing to put chips in the middle? Bet at least 500 on the turn.

You did get info with the check-back that v is not sure about his hand. If I wasn’t sure before, I would definitely think I was ahead now.

I think you could have gotten calls on the flop and turn, but if you get called on the river, you’re probably beat. It gets really sick, if you get raised.

i screwed up i thought V2 had an $800 stack

checking turn makes more sense to me now, but b/c you are OOP i dont see any good way to control the pot so i just bet small again and pray V2 doesnt raise. as played no way id bet that big on river w/o a super lag image.

It might be better not to 4! QQ in a 1/3 game, even versus a loose 3-bettor. You could have some bluffs, but this may be an overplay. This is indicated by your not being willing to get money in on a good flop. If he is LAG, you can flat call and call down a lot with QQ.

I don't understand a cbet of 75 into 525. What is the point of going to small?

You are losing to AA/KK/JJ. He really shouldn't have a 5, but that is possible. He probably 5!s AA, particularly with both players' images.

Once you 4! and flop an overpair on a dry board, maybe you should just bet/bet/bet and stack off, particularly with your likely image.

Grunch:

PRE - in this set up, I'd want to 4B to a bigger size, like 4x, or $240.

FLOP - small c-bet is fine. We might be able to go as big as $100-$150, but some might argue we should go smaller, like 10% pot. I dunno. Your sizing may be splitting the baby, but in a good way.

TURN - so...we should ask if V has any 5B range pre. He may not. But at these stakes, and especially at this stack depth, I think most players are going to put the last bet in with AA/KK. We're behind JJ, and not much else. So I could see arguments for barreling here, for another smallish bet, just targeting his JX, TT and worse PP's.

If our image really sucked, we might be able to go big. It's just hard to extract max value when we're OOP in a 4B pot and the board is pretty static and dry. He's probably not going to pay off three big bets with TT or worse.

That said, I don't hate checking, if the plan is to feign weakness on the turn in order for a chunky river bet to get paid.

RIVER - yeah, this seems fine. I could see arguments for going bigger, and some for going smaller. I'd think your turn check should allow you to size up here, without being totally face up as a value bet.

Before seeing any reveal, I won't be entirely shocked if we somehow lost to trips or better here. Starting out this deep, and in position, V has reasonable implied odds to continue as a flat call with a wide range of 99+ and a lot of his suited AX combos. It might argue for a different line, but I think the starting stack depth makes this challenging.

Overall, it seems generally well played. I think we probably left some value on the table and made it more challenging post by not 4B'ing bigger pre, and we could argue over the line taken on flop and turn, but I think we'd mostly just be quibbling over small differences.

Nice hand, Banana.

Haven't given any thought to the hand whatsoever, but these are beautiful

If the purpose of the 4! was to build the pot, then you need to put money in postflop on a good flop.

I'm assuming we'll have to check some street. There's no way we are winning a 1600bb pot from V1 with QQ here, going bet bet shove just feels like suicide this deep.

Rofl. The descriptions just get more ridiculous every post.

Honestly being OOP 800 bb deep I would just call the 3b - you do not want to be building a pot OOP this deep against a LAG who can torture you postflop on a lot of boards. Making mistakes this deep is going to cost you a lot of money. On the flip side I would 3b him extremely wide when in position - as stacks get deeper position becomes a lot more important so I'd be happy to play bigger pots IP. Your bet is sort of pointless on the flop here - either go larger or check. I'd prob bet. On the turn I like the check. River - I might bet like 200-250 get him to flick it in for some value - don't think he ever calls worse for 800.

Preflop: I prefer to go bigger preflop - maybe 275 or 300. I don't want to go multiway with QQ.

AP flop: bigger, maybe 150.
Turn: x fine

River: We are WAWB. V has roughly 540 back and pot is 705. He's not calling with anything we beat except maybe AJ if we put him all-in.

I prefer to bet small and give him a chance to call off his midpairs. If he raises/jams, we are high enough in our range to make a crying call.

Spanishmoon, it's V1, not V2 -- lots behind.

FWIW, I go bigger w/ my 4bet -- at least $225, more like $250 - $275. I go bigger on the flop, ~$200. Checking the turn is fine. I'm OK w/ the over-bet on the river, but your plan needs to be call it off.

This hand seems ridiculous to me

As played i'm just checking river and hoping he bets so we can call.

I can't imagine anyone calling $800 with worse, but live players always seem to amaze me.

I've torched massive amounts of money in spots like this when I had JJ/QQ in very similar spots only to get called by a slow played KK/AA or a random trips when i've been mega deep vs some players. Are you betting $800 as a bluff or value?

Damn bro.

you think anyone competent is calling $800 with worse?

Maybe $200 - $300 a jack calls

He 3b button - so his range is gonna be wider so he could have a 5 in his range - WE rarely ever have a 5 unless you start 4b with A5s and our best hand is gonna be JJ which won't 4b often.

I don't mind the 4b - and I like the check on the turn.

I don't like the small flop bet, and I hate the river bet.

he's a 3am LAG on a huge downswing and someone who plays a lot bigger. Yes, that person will call a lot

So what. He just calls it off with random hands or a jack? Your value comes from pre and the flop imo. This works against massive fish but I’d still be betting flop bigger if that’s the case. If he’s one of those players than I suppose it’s fine.

You’re the one saying he’s competent - not sure we have proof?
I would have bet flop bigger too. And would have bet turn. My general principle is always that people make more calling mistakes than raising mistakes so I’m gonna keep betting with an overpair. Particularly at 3am against a guy on a huge downswing who is used to making bets and decisions for a lot of $&

Result:

I just thought you were overly harsh towards Banana. He bruises easily, so handle tenderly.

Addressing your point directly...

It's a 4B pot. The ranges here should be tight, even for BTN, at least in theory. But the stack depth and Banana's 4B sizing allows V to continue wider.

We could have a lot of whiffs with AK, maybe some AQs or something else, depending on how we're structuring our 4B range.

Hero's pre-flop raise size, his flop bet size, and his turn check allow V to get to the river with a super wide range. So, if he does have JX, he could call. He might call with TT, and I could see a world in which he hero's with AK, even though he really shouldn't.

If it's possible he hero's with AK, he might hero with any PP that called pre and gets here this way. It's not like we're going to have a lot of 9X or JX in our range when we 4B pre. If V is just putting us on AK that whiffed, any PP is a decent bluff catcher. Our line is consistent with AK.

Could he have us beat with JJ, 99, or 5x? Yes, maybe. But that's not the bulk of his range here, I don't think. And I'd think there has to be some frequency of those hands betting turn.

If he has 99/JJ in range, he has TT, and probably some lower PP's that were set-mining pre and got too good a price to fold on the flop.

I hate the smaller 4B pre. I like the small flop bet sizing. I'm mostly indifferent to the turn check. But when we check turn and he checks back, I think we need to value bet the river, and for a chunky size. And yes, I think we can get called by worse in this line.

I mean... I don't know if we should act as if we were targeting that sort of hand for value pre or on flop. He probably should have folded pre or just let it go on the flop, even versus our smaller bet/raise sizing.

If your read is that he's LAG, ok, I think your pre-flop and flop line is okay, and your bet/raise sizing is good if we think he's going to continue as wide as ATs when we give him a price. But if so, I think we should barrel turn for a small size, just to try to squeeze a little more value out of him. He clearly doesn't like folding and / or he doesn't believe the story we're telling.

The problem with checking turn against this sort of V, especially after our bet sizing allows him to arrive with a wide range, is that he's likely to start applying pressure with big bets, leveraging his wider range.

If he has AT here, he has AJ in range, and might have A5. Obviously he has AK/AQ, and I'd guess he has a bunch of PP's, plus maybe a decent amount of SC's. He can have 65s/54s.

You'd want to lay down in traffic if he raises river with 99, or if you fold to his raise and he shows you TT or worse.

That turn check works when he has SDV and calls our river bet. It backfires when he sucks out or bluffs us off the best hand.

All that said, interesting / nice hand. Glad you didn't get cooked.

Preflop and flop are fine, you could make a minor quibble about the sizing but whatever. There is an argument to be made for just calling the 3bet when you're this deep against a very aggressive player and just calling down postflop, but with the whale in there the 4bet seems much better.

This deep you definitely need to show some respect for the stacks...but so does your opponent. Nutted hands are important here. You can both have JJ. You can both have A5s. It's tricky working out what the button 5bet range is, especially given the 5bet could be to a size that doesn't commit you, which is rare. This deep, being OOP is problematic too.

My instinct would be to bet again on the turn and then check-call river. Is he more likely to call a river bet with a bluffcatcher like AK, or bluff the river himself? Either way I don't like river sizing this thin, it lets him shrug and fold AK and you're only really getting value from AJ and TT.

Are Vs really calling 4bets that wide in your cardroom regularly?