1/2, 900 eff: KJs flops TP+FD

I would’ve folded pre and just bet out 100 on the flop.

AP I x/r to 150. Can’t just call and give the limpers over 4-1.

You can’t rely on players to bet for you, so I bump it $100 and take the initiative. Betting small cause I don’t mind if a limper calls.

Against AJ it’s a flip, though slightly worse if he has the As - better than 30% equity vs 99 - a near flip against 2pair

*the check-raise is about value, but it’s also about control. You can bet or if you check again, villain is thinking about that check-raise. Maybe not, some just think of their cards

*calling could be better when more shallow (answering the next question too) but being this deep, I think you want to pump it up

I don’t think it’s a big difference either way. This is not just a draw, having that made hand makes a difference - it can improve too. Bring on the turn.

Grunch:

PRE - seems fine. I'd be tempted to 3B squeeze, especially this deep. I don't hate calling when our raise would need to get through 4 peeps, and we'll be OOP the rest of the hand. We'll just need to be more thoughtful about our post-flop actions.

FLOP - I think a donk is at least worth considering. I might lead out for $35-$40, hoping to get value from the players in the middle who would otherwise be expected to naturally check in flow. We can't always expect the PFR to c-bet into four opponents.

V's c-bet doesn't seem like weak sizing to me. The bet itself, into four opponents, looks strong. I wouldn't x/r. Obviously we're not folding. So just call.

Our opponents can have better 1P or better draws, but no one can have both. I think it would be a blunder if we raised and ended up iso'ing ourselves against a better pair and a better draw.

I would expect the players left to act will mostly fold. If they continue as a flat call, I think that would mostly cap them at worse 1P or some sort of draw. Because they limped pre, it would seem unlikely that either has the NFD. They could have some combo-draws, but I think we should have a ton of equity here, even if we get to the turn with 2 or even 3 opponents remaining.

I don't think our hand is strong enough to warrant a raise for value or equity denial. I think a raise just gets called or 3B by better and folds out worse. Very often we either win a small pot now or lose a bigger pot later.

I think the stack depth is more of a consideration pre, when we have the option to 3B or flat call. Multi-way on the flop, I'm more concerned about our equity vs our opponents' likely ranges.

One of the values in flatting pre and on the flop is that we'll have a wider range getting to later streets. This makes it possible for us to rep more hands. We'll get to the turn and river with a lot of missed draws that will fold to aggression, so we can bluff catch pretty liberally when we have an under-repped but strong TP to go with our draw.

The PFR is still uncapped. He could have QQ-AA, the NFD, 99, or the one combo of JJ. I wouldn't be too worried about the limpers. They can have AJo, or a combo draw with QTss/T8ss, but mostly I'd think they'll have worse 1P or worse draws if they over-call.

If we call and one of them x/r's, I wouldn't like it. I'd assume the raiser has 2P+ for value or a monster combo draw. I'd have a hard time folding if the PFR folds to the raise. But if the raise is big and the PFR calls, I'd think we should consider bowing out.

no way im folding pre $900 deep vs a HJ raise. squeezing might be ok but i'm going to defer to what i see expert pros on streams usually doing with this hand pre vs this size raise in the big blind this deep, which is to smooth call.

as played i dont think flop is a decision at all. you just call and see what happens on the turn. keep in all the low equity hands and dont bloat the pot with a hand that already has showdown value and also doesn't do that well once the pot gets bloated.

So what hands besides sets and 2p do we raise on flop? Exploitaitively zilch?

Thought you were a nitty old man! 🤠

There are streams from expert pros playing 6+3+1 1-2?

KJ doesn’t play well for a raise in the blinds regardless of pot size imo.

Seriously, hero got about the best flop he could’ve and he still had to start a thread about it.

Multi-way, with two opponents left to act, we may not have any raises at all. If we do raise, it might only be a very tight range of nutted hands and monster combo draws, like QTss, T8ss, J9, and 99.

Pros playing 1/2?

I dunno. If action folded to the CO or BTN, he raised, and SB folded, I'd mix calling and 3B'ing KJs / K9s (I'd 3B one or the other, depending on the stack depth, the raiser's position, and my reads).

KJs is a strong, playable starting hand. Just not strong enough to squeeze over 2 limps, an MP open, and an LP call. Pretty optimistic to expect our raise to get through four opponents playing LOL-stakes.

I mean this with all due respect but you need to find a different hobby if you can't play KJs profitably from the BB vs your average 1/2 drooler.

Edit: You should be calling worse Kxs btw.

Lol.

OP started a thread to ask if we call or c/r or bet how much, it's not a Billy in Jail thread so let's say preflop call is fine. BUT playing out of position sucks relative to having the similar situation when we are on the BTN.

I would call. I think there are enough value and semi bluff (str8 flush draw) where you can c/r balanced. Don't want to c/r in a way biased toward the less than tptk stuff so this can be a somewhat deceptive smooth to keep flexibility. Yeah you could argue that maybe you buy yourself the K outs by pressuring QTo but that's targeting a specific hand.

Villains are all unknown. Hero is about 58% v 10/50/50 ranges on the flop. Goes up to about 69% hu v 10. EDIT about 19% pf v 50/50/10/10.

So as played, I’m donking 100 and seeing where the limpers are at right now. Might even say “Blackjack!” while I do it.

OK, I’m xr to 150 to pressure QT, unsuited or otherwise.

Preflop: prefer to fold not closing the action with two limpers behind and setting up an oop spot where we are likely dominated.

AP flop: the HJ is repping an overpair. The limpers are set-mining or have suited connectors and are acting behind us. So I prefer to call in flow as we are likely to have the best draw and I'm happy to let them draw thin. Reopening the action may elicit a jam or overbet from the preflop raiser, which would be no good and put us to a very difficult decision.

If one of the limpers made their set, we will hear from them immediately on this board, thereby saving a lot of heartache.

I think we win a big pot here by making our hand and hoping someone behind us has a smaller flush or the HJ has AsAx, It's a higher variance strategy but I prefer it to just blowing everyone out on the flop and/or isolating ourselves against the top of HJ's range getting a poor price when he jams or overbets.

Curious to understand the logic behind donking for full pot.

I was thinking a 1/3-40% pot donk would seem like a reasonable play. We can target worse 1P / worse draws to get some value from the players between us and the PFR, who may be checking back at a high frequency. If we get raised, the raise size will likely be small enough that we'll be getting the right implied odds to continue with our specific hand.

Donking full pot, multi-way, would seem insanely polar, such that I'd think we'll end up folding most worse hands / worse draws, and funnel our opponents into having better hands / better draws when they continue, especially if they continue by raising.

Would we be potting it in the hopes of getting raised, so we can just get it in on the flop?

No logic other than i’ve bungled hands futzing and fumbling around trying to figure out 30% size bets. Simpler for me to mostly follow the old Keller/Cloutier PLO rule and just bet/raise potish most of the time.

Certainly not close to solver or GTO, but a man’s gotta know his limitations.

If I had the nuts fd, I wouldn't mind keeping the limpers in the pot, but kith KJs, nah. I'd def go for XR, except if V is superduper nitty.

I mean...you can respond if you want, but I'm not trying to make you defend this.

If your usual bet size is pot, that would suggest you tend to keep track of the pot size street-by-street. If you can remember and do math, I'd think you'd be able to go one step further and estimate 1/4 to 3/4 pot sizes closely enough.

Unless you're saying it's not a doing-math-in-muh-head problem, but rather a don't-know-which-fraction-to-use problem, or there's some underlying hypothesis which suggests PSB's are just higher EV if we're trying to simplify every decision by having a single bet size.

Sometimes I'll have a flash-back to maybe 4-5 years ago, when I think I may have been c-betting and barreling for 2/3 pot all the time. The memory of some regs' reactions makes me mentally cringe, and wonder how much EV I punted off.

How do you get $900 deep against an unknown in a 1/2 game? Is your buy-in uncapped?

Also, I note that almost all of your posted hands are straddled. This leads me to believe you're playing in a very non-standard game, and it would be worth talking about game conditions in your OPs. Folks make certain assumptions when they see 1/2 that might not apply to your game.

Alright then.

Heh, you should see the look on the kids working at chickfila’s faces when I hand them $21.17 for a $5.42 milkshake. More than a few have placed the $1.17 off to the side and then handed it back to me along with $14.58 from the register.

99.999% of the EV I’ve punted at nine-handed raked ssnlhe has come from either playing non Group 1 hands in the blinds & utg/+1, or calling postflop shoves, or calling instead of raising/folding second to act three handed. I respect your posts, but for me at least bet sizing isn’t worth the mental energy, aside from the obvious cases. If the pot’s 120, I just don’t see 1/3 or 1/4 making much difference.

The other .001 came from being affected by anything regs in these games say or do. Hell, that should apply in any game or tournament, based on what big cash games I’ve railed, nvm the annual ME lulz.

Johnny Chan at the height of his success & fame told a national magazine writer that a big pair with a flush blocker was a 2-1 favorite on 5th St over the four flush+smaller pair. I’m supposed to gaf about some retired hs coach or coked up blackjack dealer in a small town 1-3 game?