1-3 Middle set vs the world
1/3 NL Hero stack is $350ish. The table is 8-handed at the moment, and opponent stacks range from $200-500.
UTG limps ($200) - this player has VPIP near 100% and < 5% pfr. Has called a $17 raise with A5o out of position. Peels flop light if the price is right. Has made some donk bluffs on the river with busted flush, etc. but also donks a made two pair or whatever.
UTG+1 limps - passive, but maybe plays 40% of hands. Standard small stakes rec.
Hero has 7♥7♣ in UTG+2 and raises to $10.
HJ calls - a bit on tilt. Tough guy 60-something trying to get unstuck.
CO calls - a middle-aged player, has made some comments that show he's thinking about opponent ranges. Still loose pre, but not bad post.
BTN calls ($300ish) - younger player, pretty straightforward, loose medium aggression.
SB calls - old guy fit or fold.
BB calls - old guy veteran of war hat.
UTG and UTG+1 call.
Flop (8 players $73 after rakes) T♠ 7♠ 4♥
Check to hero, and we....?
15 Replies
This is literally the second best hand in our range. We bet for value. I'd probably go 60% ish, but more can't be bad.
What would you do with AA here? Do that.
Maybe in 1/2 - but you should raise at least 15 or don’t bother - just crazy to have 8 people see the flop.
It’s too late now, everyone is involved
Bet 25 on the flop
They expect the raiser to bet, doesn’t look like a monster, and you welcome being raised. Our hand can stand some heat and don’t really want to run anyone off. You might get a spade draw to blast off.
I would think with 7 players, more than one is playing fit or fold. Kinda hope someone does raise and then maybe you reraise & size up. If all you get is callers, you’re not too involved if the flush hits the turn.
Your descriptions are decent, but I feel like I would know more about villains. I might bet 100 instead if I thought a couple of people would call. A lot depends on your ?image? If they have played with me awhile, they prob don’t call a big bet.
You have a lot of options, but you want to get paid. A hidden set is one of the best situations in the game and you should get action with the crowd involved. It’s hard to predict where it goes from here - if these kinda family pots are happening often, I might have bet 25 pre. It’s just that with so many people, bad things can happen to the best of hands.
What were you expecting to happen when you raised?
I’ve been at tables like this, next to act calls your smallish raise and it’s a chain reaction with subsequent players all justifying their call because ‘pot odds’!
If the plan was to build a pot for the 11.8% of the time we flop a set then we succeeded. Now we want to maximise our value from it.
Bet $35-$40 and thin the field.
Jam over any raise.
Grunch:
PRE - seems like a small raise size that will lead to a multi-way pot. I'd generally raise bigger, but if it's a super-splashy game and you're going multi-way no matter what, and because you're starting out somewhat shallow, maybe it's an okay raise size.
FLOP - Either c-bet on the large size or go for a check-raise. With three opponents behind us, there's a reasonable chance someone will bet, but I think I'd prefer to just bet our hand for value and hope someone has a hand that can call. Might make it $50.
If we check and someone bets, the x/r size should be massive. We should be trying to make this a two-street game where we get it all in on the turn.
So, if we can get $100 or more in on the flop, I'd jam any / all turns that don't bring in the flush or an obvious straight. Hoping to fade any 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, J or spade.
Does anybody else think 77 may be too thin to iso raise from UTG+2?
I do. Overlimp or if you must raise, raise bigger. Wouldn't mind 20.
Now, cbet like you would with your typical UTG2 range. X-r 8-ways just lets everyone fold correctly. SPR is like 5 now.
Either cbetting something like 30-35, which probably gets a few calls, and allows a normal looking turn shove. Or bet something like pot, looking like the OP concerned about a wettish flop that you're not. With any luck, you'll get raised.
Pre: Way too small at 1/3 with two limpers. 15 to 20.
Flop: Bet 50, and depending on pot size and a safe turn, looking to jam most turns.
Good food for thought on preflop.
So one thing that occurs in this lineup, if we limp, is a late position or blind player may juice it to $20+ to "punish the limpers", not always but enough to notice a pattern.
The $10 is an attempt to set my price, expecting it to go multiway and set up a good SPR for a set or the occasional low card flop like 654.
3-bets are rare but if I had gone $20 and then faced say $60 or $70 I prob have to fold.
At low limits, I like opening small pairs from anywhere, because they are so easy to play post-flop. I also usually call an open, but these two strategies play out very differently. I can get aggressive with bluffing opening the action if ranges look capped, while I’m likely fit or fold if I call.
Taking chances with these hands makes sense with weaker players, because they will often stack off with high pocket pairs. Being aggressive when in a hand, I value own myself more than I’d like to against a set. It’s a great trap hand.
Once a 3bet happens, I’m usually done with it and in certain games where I know that 3bet is likely coming, I might fold up front.
I keep telling people I’m not a gambler, I play poker - but you have to take some chances
Good food for thought on preflop.So one thing that occurs in this lineup, if we limp, is a late position or blind player may juice it to $20+ to "punish the limpers", not always but enough to notice a pattern. The $10 is an attempt to set my price, expecting it to go multiway and set up a good SPR for a set or the occasional low card flop like 654.3-bets are rare but if I had g
So, you’re afraid if you limp (I don’t, though dadgum gg is causing me to experiment with it some up front), then the button will bet big to buy the pot. This happens often with button straddles - I understand what you’re saying
But I never want to draw a crowd and I think you need to be able to play this hand aggressively to be effective. I used to bet 10 OOP myself (not with a limper) but I found that the button would still try to buy the pot without respecting my bet.
When I see wide openers OOP and I do, I’m expecting to have a good day.
I’m not really a nit like everyone thinks, except OOP. I admit that’s the weak part of my game and I’m always open to suggestions. I’m sure it’s best not to admit I fold AQo, AJo, KQo and others.
Mostly not playing paint at all, but pairs and suited aces can make big hands, so I’ll take chances with them up front. How to best play these situations, I’m not sure I’ve discovered yet.
I’m proof that you can suck playing OOP, but be so comfortable in position that it takes coolers to prevent a winning session.
Good food for thought on preflop.So one thing that occurs in this lineup, if we limp, is a late position or blind player may juice it to $20+ to "punish the limpers", not always but enough to notice a pattern. The $10 is an attempt to set my price, expecting it to go multiway and set up a good SPR for a set or the occasional low card flop like 654.3-bets are rare but if I had g
I understand and mostly like your reasoning for the raise size pre. That said, if you're going to do that with low and mid PP's, I think we need to go for max value when we flop a set.
I'd be wondering if any of our opponents would flat call pre with bigger PP's, like 88-TT, or even JJ, such that we're opening the door to get coolered set over set. I wonder if there's value in betting smaller or bigger depending on how high our pair is.
ETA - if we don't want to go $20 and fold to a 3B, why not open to $15?
Also, is it such a bad thing to raise-fold if we get 3B? Surely we must have some hands that open but fold to a raise.
(I have no idea if your quote is gonna show up.)
At <120bb, not worried about set-over-set. It's going to happen, and you're right about what people will limp & overcall versus open and raise. It doesn't happen anywhere near as often as H hitting jackpot.
I also can't see the update from OP: what happened on the turn and later?
Preflop is OK. You accomplished your goal, got a multiway pot. I would make it about 15, so it doesn't look so obvious or limp. The small raise could provoke a 3!, which would usually be a disaster. Getting it 8-ways with 77 is good. It is obviously very profitable if your immediate odds are about the same as your chance of hitting.
I would bet about 60 on the flop. I can see reasons for betting less than half pot, but you want to build the pot, and they are likely somewhat inelastic to sizing. Draws aren't going to fold to any reasonable sizing. It is hard for anyone to have a big made hand on the flop, because 2-pair is unlikely (T7s/74s).
Point taken about $15, as the $10 might be rightfully pounced upon as a pot builder raise with a speculative holding. I was a bit snakebitten, having previously opened JJ to $15 and had to fold to a $55 3b. Maybe if I had gone $10 there I could call a smaller 3b to setmine.
Seems like consensus is betting. There are all kinds of draws possible but apparently no one had anything as my $50 cbet took it down.
I recall a hand from a while back where I had 77 otb in a 1/2 game, raised to $10, flopped a set 5 ways on T74, and got a couple bets out of AT.
The reason I posted this is not "how could I win more?" But bc I have heard on theory podcasts that when the pot is massively multiway a smaller bet makes sense bc the players collectively share the burden of keeping a bettor honest and thus need a stronger range to call 1/2 pot or more.
And now I see that you did update us. Thanks!
Weird that *seven* opponents folded to 50 on this board, but w/e. Sounds like they were ripe for abuse. Guess 30 might've been better, oh well.
Nice hand.
Yeah, but your average low stakes player couldn't spell Multway MDF, let alone understand the mathematics behind it. They might be slightly more reluctant multiway to call, but they are in no way thinking MDF.
I think betting big is fine.
Let me give you this scenario:
- You could be heads up with $200 against 1 player or $250 against 4 players... what ya gonna choose?
The reason I posted this is not "how could I win more?" But bc I have heard on theory podcasts that when the pot is massively multiway a smaller bet makes sense bc the players collectively share the burden of keeping a bettor honest and thus need a stronger range to call 1/2 pot or more.
That doesn't ring true to me. Maybe we should post this question in the theory forum.
I think our sizings are ~same, but we need to tighten waaaay up on our cbetting range; especially OOP.
maybe im late to the party but OOP vs 3 players id cr this flop with sets and big spades, and check/call overpairs. with an overpair you are looking to check/call 2 streets and then showdown (if you have to call 3 streets you're not good). i dont think id ever bet with anything. and i wouldnt CR big either, just fairly small to start building a pot.
if you bet big you are announcing that you have a big hand so i dont think its surprising everyone folded. even a T probably folds, unless exactly AT. because no one is suicidal enough to bet into this field this big without at minimum an overpair.
Point taken about $15, as the $10 might be rightfully pounced upon as a pot builder raise with a speculative holding. I was a bit snakebitten, having previously opened JJ to $15 and had to fold to a $55 3b. Maybe if I had gone $10 there I could call a smaller 3b to setmine.Seems like consensus is betting. There are all kinds of draws possible but apparently no one had anything
I like your bet size, but the driving factor is the short stack depths. When there are players in the pot with $200 starting stacks, I'm trying to get it all in on the turn, not drag this out and make it a 3-street game where we're only getting it all in when our opponents' draw out on us.
