Deuces

So essentially if this hand took place same BBs at 5/10+ or even if there’s slightly enough history to know that this Villain sandwiched in middle isn’t a complete maniac and understands some simple concepts like hand reading and how bad it is multi-way to risk a lot in a main pot with a dry side pot that would be way less than what the main pot risk is…then the us becomes an easy fold?

Grimstard stop “guessing” what might have happened. Instead of saying maybe one of the blinds called just pick a story and go with it. You will get more specific feedback with more specific hand histories.

Also, stop being an a-hole.

If main villain can have A9s, JJ, TT, then we have to call. If we're 60% sure he doesn't have those hands, I think we have to fold. Probably just a fold. But honestly, I don't think I would ever make this fold for for 325-350 effective stacks pre at a 1/2 table.

With rake and facing a 7.5bb raise pre, 22 on the button is probably a losing call pre.

I’ll start writing down HH notes as they happen now. Not sure if you caught the message I mentioned in an earlier post of mine but I’ll re iterate. Nazi mods life banned several of my accounts over past couple decades and I stopped posting and saw no reason to write down HHs exactly. All the recent hand posts are from months some maybe even a year ago so forgive me if they’re not exact. Seems there’s new ownership and I’m no longer black listed so I’m more likely to write down HHs as they happen but in live poker it’s not exactly easy to remember exact suits and cards when the dealers who work for tips wipe they board asap and get onto next hand. Not like I can take a camera out and photograph the board after a big hand either. So sometimes live hands aren’t exact like pulling an online HH. So think for a moment who is really the a hole here…?

22 is a wacky one. Tough for 22 unimproved to be good five ways in a 7.5 bb raises pot. And calling/(even making) bets with underpair is heavy fish activity especially multi-way so it’s basically just a pray to hit a set situation and a lot of the time gotta tread carefully. Not sure why we’re comparing no limit to fixed limit cuz they’re way different. I’d almost rather go heads up versus a small raise in position (being fairly confident the likelihood of getting squeezes out is low) with deep stacks rather than very multi-way getting better immediate odds but against shorter stacks and lower implied odds out of position

If you're not sure if the turn was a 4 or a 3, or if the river was a spade or a club, just pretend you are sure, pick one and stick with it, that's the whole point. And I agree with everyone that this HH is unreadable. It's not that hard to put down a well-structured hand history, since everyone else on this forum manages to do so just fine. Just put some effort into it.

I would wanna fold my deuces here, but probably won't be able to. I also see no reason to raise this dry flop.

Why give qq etc a free look at turn with approx 70 bb already in middle?

The old way of thinking is we want call more hands when it is multiway because we have better pot odds. Nowadays solvers are telling us we want to call less hands the more multiway it is. You get better pot odds but it is harder to beat multiple opponents. On top of not always getting paid off when you hit a set, there are more potential coolers to dodge. There are more potential set over sets, straights, and flushes, and boat over boats to avoid multiway. Bottom set is still almost always going to be good enough to stack off, but all these things do eat away at the overall profitability.

We're trying to stack overpairs and top pairs when we hit a set with 22. Occasionally 2pairs, but we are going to be against 2p less often. The main guy that is going to have overpairs and hands like AK on KX2, AX2, AK2 flops is going to be the preflop raiser. Everyone else is more likely to be set mining like you and are more likely to only stick it in with nutted hands that might actually beat you.

So yeah. You would much rather be heads up to stack the preflop raiser when you hit a set or sometimes win with a pair when he has whiffed overs.

And what is really killing you is the 7.5x open and rake. Most hands are going to struggle to make money unless they 3bet, especially when you're not in the BB.

Obviously, if you are calling with 22 and it is likely to go 5-way, you are almost always folding when you miss. However, the immediate odds make it a very profitable play due to possibilities of big pots when you hit. Obviously, sometimes you lose when you hit, but it is still profitable.

In a 1/2 or 1/3 game, I would limp or open smallish with 22 in ep. In most 5/10 games, it is an easy fold in ep and you could usually only play it as an overcall or late position open.

yeah idk

the issue with 2s is the open is very large (worse immediate odds / lower spr), the opener is short, the rake is very high, we're not closing the action, and the actual hand isn't very good. i think these types of hands and suited connectors have some weird human bias to think that they're better than they are but generally if you call ip otb you aren't just set mining. can almost guarantee OP isn't doing that which neuters the ev of the hand to an extent.
w that said zero theory been posted so we can take a look at some stuff on gtow. i wish i knew how to post screenshots but alas i do not.
when i start looking at a few different pre charts heres what i see. (in presearch / pre only mode)
50bb min open cev mp open co call btn always calls 22 (this is no rake i believe)
50 bb 3x open cev mp open co calls btn still pure calls 22
50bb r and c (high rake environment probably similar to live low stakes) mp min open co call btn mixes calling 22 ~60%
50bb r and c (high rake environment probably similar to live low stakes) mp min 3x open co call btn mixes calling 22 ~28%
70bb r and c (no rake?) mp 3x co call btn purecalls 22
70bb r and c (high rake) mp 3x co call btn calls 22 ~36%
100 bb r and c (high rake) mp 3x co call btn calls 22 ~28%

it stands to reason with the high rake as the open gets higher the 22 calls will become losing and trend to 0, but in a no rake environment its potentially a call at equilibrium, which means its atleast close. its hard to to quantify how its going to perform live as it's going to depend on things like how big of errors we can expect our opponents to make most (will this compensate for making a pre error), and how hero is going to play his hand on all boards. with that being said its very murky in practice. it seems like people in the thread aren't taking rake into account at all (except for mark) which makes sense, its easy to over look / human bias if you dont look at numbers and stats and just play live.

the postflop analysis in the thread is pretty crazy that people dont want to raise because we must have it if we raise? that isn't how the spot works imo and you have the absolute best value hand to raise as you dont block middle or top pair, or some random top 2 that its conceivable a game that has 5 people going to the flop vs a 7.5x open could have in their ranges. also think that the issue with these threads is they only get posted if hero lost the hand lol. either hero folds and gets shown ridiculous spaz or calls and loses to overset. i think its very dangerous to approach poker from the standpoint of what does he think i have when i do this vs someone who probably plays 200 hours a year at the lowest stakes publically offered that you have no history with and try to make large adjustments in esoteric spots based off of projection. there are possibly people in the world you can consider folding this vs but it really needs to be someone that you have a ton of history and understanding of their game, not someone whos entire description is "Villain calls in early/mid position."

@grimstard: the wording of most of your threads are kind of weird where it seems like you think you're better than the forum or better than posting hands or something. i get you used to play higher stakes and maybe it doesn't feel good to not know whats going on at ssnl but i think you'll generally get a better reception if you just make an effort to write out hhs and stop trolling with long useless descriptions or saying things like "maybe the bb called, maybe he didnt, maybe gfy" or "i was sitting on table 1 thats by the chasier, it was cold, v was wearing a sweater. all of this is important to post bc live poker is about details and they all matter tee hee". like its weird and you're also asking hyper basic questions - should i fold a set getting 3 or 4:1 vs unknown randoms ive provided no information on 100 bb deep!? the entire rest of the forum somehow finds a way to remember / write down hands, im pretty sure if you put your mind to it you can do it too, even with those darned dealers that work on tips and quickly wipe the boards. if you want to look at what you "should do" in hands they have really good tools out now to get better.

interesting add to pre.
in the same pre scenarios
gg r+c 100bb mp 3x co fold btn pure folds 22, same for 70 and 50
cev 100bb mp 3x btn calls 22 33% of the time, 70bb 26%, 50 bb 5%

gg r and c 100bb mp 2x co fold btn basically pure folds, 70 bb same, 50bb same
cev 100 bb mp 2x co fold btn pure calls, 70bb btn pure calls, 50 bb same

so the extra person / potentially people calling in the middle do make a difference

Yeah I get it they make a difference but forgive me for being honest that I really don’t remember those exact details for this hand and maybe a couple others I’ve posted in past. Will try to be better going forward