IS THIS AN ANGLE SHOOT?

Believe him. I'd say you should give you two or three more chances. If lied about his hand, he's got it out of his sytem now. So, you can totally believe him the next time.

Yup,....sometimes people lie about their hands. Heads up, there's nothing wrong with it.

It is just table talk heads up. Not an angle. It is no different that him saying, "I don't believe you have a straight, I'm raising."

Not an angle shoot. People mislead with statements. For instance in this case he may have quads, but rarely flat out lie when they can be found out. Clearly not true 100pct, as this case proves.

Now when they can't be found out that's different. I once accidentally saw the cards of this sweet old lady as she folded saying she had jacks when she had AK.

It's scummy, but not an angle, no more than someone lying while bluffing, claiming to have a better hand.

As a general rule, when a friendly opponent says they have you beat on the river, they probably have you beat. When an opponent raises you, and the only hand better than yours would be the nuts, I would give the raise more weight than any speech they make. Maybe they have the same hand, and it's a chop, but that's probably less likely than an opponent having the nuts.

“It’s poker, Phil!”

Lying? In poker?!

Let's say he didn't have a full house but told you he had one. Now you call anyway and win. Should he be upset about you not believing him?

At low stakes, I find people very rarely lie about their cards outright, if they can be found out. I think it's somewhat a social construct as OP sorta pointed out.

Now they may misdirect, but flat out saying I don't have x, and showing up with x, I'm not sure I've seen much of at all.

Also called out as a pattern too in "Verbal Poker Tells" by Elwood (good book for those who have not read).

How is anyone entertaining this as even being “scummy”? Guys like this are great and fun for the game. There are a lot of ways to win at poker, and players who are able to talk and convince you to make the wrong move are cool as ****. Im jealous of them, i gotta do the lame ass stone faces thing because i dont have the charisma for it.

Calling the floor over about it should get you kicked out lol.

I don't have a full house...I have THE full house

I want to take a counter viewpoint here and say that, if it were the case that players couldn’t lie about their cards, then it would be unethical for people to say anything about their hand. Showing someone that you have the nuts so that they can rightfully fold is soft playing, which is unethical even in a heads up pot. (Obviously this is all a moot point in a multiway pot.)

The only reason people are never reprimanded for saying things like “I’ve got it, you should fold” is BECAUSE it’s all table talk and should only be followed at your own risk.

By the way, I agree with everyone here that at low stakes people are overwhelmingly not making direct lies about their hand, even if they’re telling you convenient half truths. (“I’ve got two pair” on a paired board being a classic example.) I would also take them at their word and fold. But if it turned out they were lying, good for them, they got one up on me.

Just to be clear I think the social construct is an out and out lie. "I've got it, you should fold" could mean anything, so I hardly thing of that as a lie.

As for out and out lying, I don't particular care for it at 1/2 and 1/3 where nobody is making a living out of it. A lot of our EV comes from the fun for most people, and while I wouldn't call the floor on the person, it just kinda kills the mood and vibe and I wouldn't engage with them any more.

Soft play also kills the mood and is an actual threat to the competitive balance of the game. (Not in a way that actually hurts anyone else’s EV in a cash game, mind you, but it can make players feel targeted, etc).

Having a more around “no direct lying at a poker table” chills table talk, which would 100% be a mood killer. It would definitely make asking about your opponent’s hand completely inappropriate in a way that no one sees it.

I don’t do either myself and I wouldn’t call the floor regardless, but I have audibly booed people for checking back the river with the nuts against their girlfriend. In a world where saying what hand you have is necessarily the truth, I’d boo people for doing that too.

But luckily, there’s always that chance that some jabroni is lying to his girlfriend in front of 9 strangers to win $500 off of her, and even though it never happens, if you so much as rob me of the possibility of it so help me god!

no response is the best response. nothing he does to you within the limits of the game should affect you negatively, emotionally. you are new to the game and learning its limits. soon you will unphased by being slowrolled. you will welcome it as a foothold to climb. these little moments are the best teachers for you because only they can educate you on the right course of action in the moment.

furthmore on the topic of response, you don't have to shut down socially or change the mood. you can still laugh it off and continue being friendly with your opponent. All the while being mindful he is capable of table talk, which is deceitful, deceiving, deceptive by nature. But what I really want to get at is not letting it bother you. There are liars out there, cheaters, thieves and worse. They are forces of nature. Being mad at them is like being mad at a thunderstorm.

Whether or not we recommend winning players on here doing these sorts of shenanigans, we are talking about Vs who do them, 90% of them are fish who are losing even if they manage to pull a few over on people and are a ton of fun to play with and to try and decipher if you dont get so butthurt about it. The other 10% are cool in my book too, like why is it so much better to lose to someone’s winning strategy? Its LIVE poker!

Anyone have a link to the video that was making the rounds a couple years ago. Guy went ballistic and actually called the floor. The reason was the exact opposite of what happened in the OP. V tells pops not to call because he has a FH. Pops folds and V shows his bluff. Something like that anyway... Funny as hell.

Just found it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/...

This is absolutely an angle and you are entitled to compensation. Depending on the exact words and dollar amounts it could be anything from a juicer to a buy in that you are owed. Please request the casinos footage immediately, my law team will be in touch.

This is a game where opponents try to take your hard-earned money and you try to do the same to them.
It's not against the rules to lie, and you should always be ready to hear lies.
As someone earlier said, learn not to get upset about it nor anything else at the table.

I think an angle is more about misrepresenting an action that a player made or intended to make. IE tried to make it look like they bet a small amount when they bet a larger amount, try to make it look like they called when they raised, try to make it look like they called when they didn't.

Think when someone says, "I didn't look at my cards and I bet blind," but they did look at their cards. This is generally considered an angle, right? Because I think if table talk is allowed, it is generally accepted that players can lie about their hand. But they can't lie about or otherwise misrepresent an action they took.

I totally get your feeling. No one has done this to me before but I've witnessed player A at my table doing this HU on the river with player B, and managed to get B to call, then tabled the hand he 'claimed' he didn't have. Moreover, when player B walked away for a bit, player A was talking to others at the table laughing at B for being stupid and naive.

In my local casino, this is very rarely seen. It doesn't count as angle shooting, but it's disgusting, unethical in my opinion, and not entertaining at all, even when I am not involved in the hand.