Overlimp and Isoraise Ranges
I believe I’m losing value because I don’t have a good overlimping range. I’ve learned on 2+2 that overlimping is usually bad because it not only caps your range but also exposes you to an isoraise from later positions or the blinds. So I’m much more inclined to punish the limpers than join the loose-passive party to the flop.
But when opponents veer from GTO by limping—they play passively and also too loose or too tight—how should the hero adjust to exploit them? For example, in the CO facing one limper, Red Chip GTO suggests isoraising the top 11.5 percent of your range. 10.4 percent of the range are “optional raises,” 8 percent “acceptable overlimps”. It has you always iso-raising with A9s, A5s, and A4s and accepts overlimping with A2s-A3s and A6s-A8s.
Of course, few regulars play GTO. So consider an isoraise or fold strategy in the CO if the BTN or blinds are aggressive. Overlimp if the BTN and blinds are passive. Overlimp wider following two limpers. The deeper the stacks, the more you want to overlimp wider with nutted hands like Axs, pairs, and suited connectors. You also fold more trouble hands like QJo, KTo, and KJo.
I posted a hand history where I isoraised over three limpers on the butt.... Only one-third of the twenty posters favored the isoraise. Over two-thirds favored an overlimp. I’m now trying to learn from those two-thirds who favor an overlimp.
Other suggestions on how to exploit limpers by overlimping?
I think 22-66 are the most obvious overlimping hands, esp. because so many people who raise limpers won't raise big enough so you can mostly limp/call. The biggest problem is that the worst regs. are doing the same thing.
A2s-A8s are weirder, and esp. would not recommend a GTO approach of raising A4s but not A8s. Remember that when GTO bots raise MP they are doing into GTO bots that are mostly folding AJo on the BTN.
SC are usually better as a raise or fold, can try limping K4s if you are bored but you'll be playing guessing games on if they have A2s or 76s/J6s for flushes.
Also the deeper stacks thing is not a slope, but more like a bell curve for small pairs.
Eg. 22 is close to terrible at 20bb, good at 100bb, and close to terrible at 500bb.
I believe I’m losing value because I don’t have a good overlimping range. I’ve learned on 2+2 that overlimping is usually bad because it not only caps your range but also exposes you to an isoraise from later positions or the blinds. So I’m much more inclined to punish the limpers than join the loose-passive party to the flop.
If you are truly playing in a loose-passive game, then capping your range and getting exposed to isoraises behind you will not be much of a concern. This is the very reason why we can sometimes overlimp in these kinds of games and not in others. No one is paying attention to your range and whether it is capped. No one is looking to isoraise you light. If they raise behind you, they have a hand. Overlimping is not really a thing in tougher more aggressive games.
If we're table selecting well, almost everyone at the table is a long term loser (whereas hopefully we're a long time winner). With this skillz advantage (and it really only need be our opponents are capable of truly jaw dropping horrendous play at times, whereas we limit our stoopidity to fairly innocuous stuff), plus our positional advantage in LP, I find it crazy that people think we should have a raise versus fold mentality. Personally, if given a good situation then I'm attempting to get in the mix in LP with upwards of 45% of hands (and honestly don't think it is even that much of a mistake for an expert to play ~ATC here). So I would happily overlimp the "trouble" hands here as I'm fairly confident I can play them profitably against the typical LLSNL lineup in position. If you want to argue that raising is more profitable than overlimping in LP, that's fine too (you do you).
Also disagree with "Eg. 22 is close to terrible at 20bb, good at 100bb, and close to terrible at 500bb.". With multiple limpers at 20bb, we're still getting 20++:1 IO at $ sizes that could go in postflop with ~any piece; acceptable odds to speculative hand mine, imo. And at 500bb we'll be playing a hugenormous SPR in position where we can decide how big a pot to play postflop (and should never be put in a spot where we're playing for hugenormous stacks unless we say so).
And if you're truly worried about capping your overlimping range, just do what I do: overlimp monsters when not in LP.
GExploit1:seeacheapflopwithidiotsinposition;Exploit2:seeExploit1,imoG
When we limp we usually (hopefully) limp PP's and NFD/SD type of hands, so if our range is capped pre it might quickly turn into the nuts post flop so I wouldn't worry about that too much.
In the hand you posted, the problem is if we raise we have to raise bigger because of all the limps, and if someone calls and we don't flop a set (which happens like 90% of the time), we have little to no equity post flop so if we cbet it would have to be against someone who's not sticky or a non believer who likes to float flops. If the limpers are all fit or folders I'm usually still raising (gotta always fly ahead of the airplane).
Great advice everyone. Thanks.
in a high rake game i highly doubt overlimping is profitable. i do do it but im guessing that is a breakeven at best play. stuff like 22, 33, JTo should probably just get mucked.
Of course you shouldn't over limp with JT. You should mostly just be doing this with hands that make nut flushes and sets. DON'T do it with KQo (vs 5 limps or 1 limp) or AJ/AQ off. If it was me, I would only do it with 2Jo but that's just me (only bc it's one of my favorite hands I love 2Jo).
Of course you shouldn't over limp with JT. You should mostly just be doing this with hands that make nut flushes and sets. DON'T do it with KQo (vs 5 limps or 1 limp) or AJ/AQ off. If it was me, I would only do it with 2Jo but that's just me (only bc it's one of my favorite hands I love 2Jo).
why would you overlimp Axs suited hands where like 40% of the pot is raked on the flop? id rather raise them.
I have no limping range. If I'm playing 22 or 33 from the CO I'm opening it the same as I would AA
why would you overlimp Axs suited hands where like 40% of the pot is raked on the flop? id rather raise them.
How do you figure 40%? My games are capped at 10% up to 5 bucks, and I'm not limping every time since every situation is different but if I win with a flush otr the rake is probably about .005 to .01%.
Of course you shouldn't over limp with JT. You should mostly just be doing this with hands that make nut flushes and sets. DON'T do it with KQo (vs 5 limps or 1 limp) or AJ/AQ off.
I'd gleefully overlimp all of these hands (and many more) in LP against multiple limpers in a typical LLSNL lineup (perhaps leaning towards a raise against much fewer limpers). And I doubt anyone here plays in a game that is raked larger than my $9+$1+$1.
IMO, just as we should looking for a lot of very good reasons to play a hand OOP, we should be looking for a lot of very good reasons to fold a hand when in position.
Gmulletpoker:allbusinessupfrontbutpartyintheback,imoG
I've seen lots of rooms that take, say $3+2, from a $20 pot. So that's 25% and 30% if you count a $1 tip. Now the hope is that the pot you eventually win will be much larger. There are limits to this wishful thinking as you will sometimes take down the pot with a flop bet....
But I would still be comfortable over limping hands like A7s, K8s, Q8s, JTo, etc and potential weaker suited hands if your game is real good.
Those suited A,K,Q and offsuit Broadway hands can also be good iso raises otb.
In high rake games I would fold offsuit cheese like J9o and A3o and am ambivalent about suited 2-gappers e.g. 96s.
I think he's talking about the $5 dropped rake case (where $5 is taken as soon as the flop is dealt). I mean, obviously rake sucks, but this dropped rake is only truly devastating in a small limped pot that is taken down with a single flop bet (where, yes, the rake can be an enormous percentage of the pot we're dragging). But it isn't nearly as devastating if multiple streets of betting goes in.
Last night I overlimped AJo on the Button after 3 limps. If you want to make an argument that raising is more EV, fine. But I overlimped. We went 5ways and I only made TP. But thanks to all my opponents being face up morans, I got multiple flop callers to my bet when checked to and two turn callers when everyone checked a turn brick. My small thin value river bet wasn't even paid off, and on top of that $12 went down the tubes due to rake+. But I still ended up making 25:1 on my little preflop investment, all with a nothing burger hand. Having a raise or fold attitude in LP against your typical LLSNL lineup is not an ideal approach to things, imo.
GgleefullyoverlimpingG
I think limping low PP is a huge leak, and i never limp but Axs is the best limping hand by far. I simply dont think youre losing much if any value if you take every hand you were considering limping and just folding it.
Lets just completely ignore what the “best” move is. How is it that everyone agrees we ought to simplify gto solutions to a single sizing on particular boards, but people want to dick around with running 2 ranges preflop. Its just wild to me that people would take the very first node in the decision tree and unnecessarily complicate it for themselves.
You have a limited amount of brainpower and theres absolutely no reason to put that brain power towards learning how to maximize profit in limped pots.
Theres a twitch streamer with the username Tyler1 who has exploded thru the elo rankings in chess, from a complete beginner to almost 2000 elo. Wanna know how he did it? He spams the exact same opening (and as far into the middle game as he can get) every single time.
@ Tomark
Respectively, I think you're way overthinking it. Your typical run-of-the-mill losing LLSNL player is capable of making lol hugenormous postflop mistakes that we couldn't possibly make even if we tried (*insert lol I-saw-this-hand-last-night-at-my-poker-table anecdote here*). There's not much brain power involved; simply get into the mix in postion / for cheap and hope the one punted stack an hour at this table goes to us next time. Folding KTo on the Button after 3 limps because it isn't strong enough to raise versus these jokers is ludicrous, imo.
GcluelessunderthinkingnoobG
General thoughts...
I'll over-limp a wide range including 22-66, AX, some Broadway combos, and some trashier hands, like suited gappers, but I'm usually only doing this from late positions, and only when the players left to act aren't aggro or squeeze happy, and the limpers in front of me tend to limp-call more than limp-fold.
Otherwise, I'm generally playing raise or fold from every position that isn't the BTN or the BB.
Post flop I'm mostly playing those pots as fit or fold when I'm facing any aggression, but I'll make a play for the pot when it seems like no one is interested.
The way I look at it, even with the rake, playing one or two limped pots per hour, when the situation is right, can add some to our win rate, with minimal risk.
I think limping low PP is a huge leak, and i never limp but Axs is the best limping hand by far. I simply dont think youre losing much if any value if you take every hand you were considering limping and just folding it.
Lets just completely ignore what the “best” move is. How is it that everyone agrees we ought to simplify gto solutions to a single sizing on particular boards, but people want to dick around with running 2 ranges preflop. Its just wild to me that people would take the very fir
Are you talking about open limping or limping behind/overlimp?
Open limping is pretty bad obviously. Though guys like above can and do make decent profit open limping because low stakes players are so bad. He’s not making the max hourly, but I’m sure he’s aware that’s the trade off for lower risk. Especially when people will still pay off.
If you’re talking about limping behind, then you’re a bit off.
There have been solves that take limps into account (takes a ton of ram), but they have shown that limping behind is definitely a strategy solver will take.
There have been solves that take limps into account (takes a ton of ram), but they have shown that limping behind is definitely a strategy solver will take.
Curious if people did these solves for 1-2 live rake though. Esp. the CA rake.
Although I'm firmly in the GG category that limps are fine at 1-2 because people call off way too much.
I think 22-66 are the most obvious overlimping hands, esp. because so many people who raise limpers won't raise big enough so you can mostly limp/call. The biggest problem is that the worst regs. are doing the same thing.
A2s-A8s are weirder, and esp. would not recommend a GTO approach of raising A4s but not A8s. Remember that when GTO bots raise MP they are doing into GTO bots that are mostly folding AJo on the BTN.
SC are usually better as a raise or fold, can try limping K4s if you are bored bu
22 is an open shove at 20BB, gradually becomes a fold as blinds increase, definitely a fold pre in most spots at 40-80BB then becomes a raise as you near 100BB.
in a high rake game i highly doubt overlimping is profitable. i do do it but im guessing that is a breakeven at best play. stuff like 22, 33, JTo should probably just get mucked.
How high rake is live poker?
Online I am playing 12-15BB/100 in rake at micro stakes. I am guessing live is closer to 6-8BB/100.
I think he's talking about the $5 dropped rake case (where $5 is taken as soon as the flop is dealt). I mean, obviously rake sucks, but this dropped rake is only truly devastating in a small limped pot that is taken down with a single flop bet (where, yes, the rake can be an enormous percentage of the pot we're dragging). But it isn't nearly as devastating if multiple streets of betting goes in.
Last night I overlimped AJo on the Button after 3 limps. If you want to make an argument that raisi
Just imagine if you had raised and the hand played the same way how much money you would have made.
Our preflop strategy vs limpers depends on the VPIP range of the limpers and also their response to PFR.
If most limpers, limp 40-60% of hands, then I think we can PFR close to our normal range.
If OTOH is is limping 25% of hands, i.e. he's got a somewhat acceptable range, then we should more snug.
Then again, if limpers rarely 3bet us, then we can still resort to raising our normal range and exploit the value of position. This is a crucial point that I 've only recently come to realize. Illiterat above says that the charts say we should raise A4s from MP because they assume the button folds AJo, so presumably we should be weary of doing so at live poker where people will obviously call with AJo.
Yeah, but the charts also assume that the HJ, the CO and the BU 3bet you at a 10-15% clip. But if they don't and they allow you to see a flop, then raise away.
The way I see it, bloat the pot with your superior range so that when you win, you win more money and use position to maximize it even further.
