Should I call this flop 3bet jam?

I call

But i wouldnt raise flop to begin with.

1/3 of the pot is raked pre

in a 4 way pot if any decent money goes in you are 2nd best to a better flush/straight/two pair.

almost always you will flop nothing and just fold a bet from the blinds or the limper.

sorry but no.

Sure, that makes a lot of sense and I take your point about needing implied odds to play 65s. However, folding felt too tight, and limping felt too weak - which only left one option.

I know, that’s why I said “I’m going to be that guy”.

The point does stand though. I think 65s is a terrible iso pre and that’s because short of flopping the actual nuts, you always end up in situations like this.

Aah yes. The range advantage vs a fish who probably doesn’t know what range means.

Limp and fold pre are better options than iso pre. 65s plays plenty fine MW and especially on the button.

It’s not a matter of tight or weak or good or bad or anything like this. You have to have the right tool for the job. Suited connectors are better against a tighter villain with a stronger range that will either pay you off when you hit or fold when you both miss.

You complained that my comments weren't substantive or logic-based, but yet again you're relying on feels to justify your decision-making. Let's do logic, instead.

You said you wanted to isolate the LAG because he's a "bad player."

Will he play fit-or-fold on most flops?

Are you expecting his decision making to become better or worse as the SPR gets smaller?

How much fun is it going to be if he tries to play back at you, since before the river you'll usually have a drawing hand or a vulnerable, crappy pair?

What do the answers suggest about whether this is the right type of "bad player" to try to isolate with a speculative hand like 65s when on the BTN?

Raisng to ISO pre is fine. Over-limping with it is also fine. But if we can get HU, I prefer to raise.

I don't like raising the flop, when V donks into us for 2/3 pot on this monotone board. Our hand is basically a bluff catcher. V is betting pretty big. Assuming we would c-bet this flop, what size would we take? I'm guessing we'd c-bet 1/3 pot or less, so there wouldn't appear to be value in raising when V goes 2/3.

Definitely folding to his jam, which is why I don't like our raise. It's not just his speech. His line is just pretty nutted. We could have found out the same thing by flatting, and seeing what he does on the turn.

If we want to raise flop, we could min-click it, and get the same information, if not more.

Are you in CA? Here in the East only $1 rake would come out of the $12.

You don't always end up in situations like this though. On the contrary, you go into a heads up pot with the range advantage and position - which is the most profitable setup in NLHE.

?

The fish doesn't need to understand what range means in order for me to be able to leverage the advantage of being the raiser preflop and having position. Even the worst players understand that the preflop raiser goes into the hand with an advantage. I'm going to decimate him on all boards that are good for my range, as well as dry/paired boards - I'm confident I can outplay and outmaneuver him in all of these situations. I lose all of those advantages if I limp instead and have to play face-up in a multiway pot.

I agree that folding is also fine and I would fold more than half the time with 65s. I'm just never limping.

65s is a low percentage isolation range for board coverage; I am folding it more than half of the time.

I don't agree that isolation raising/3betting tight players is preferable to doing the same again weak players; the former start the hand with a much tighter range and therefore can defend more easily against raises. I also don't agree that most tight players are payoff wizards - but sure, they will certainly overfold postflop. Loose players are gonna defend much wider and go to postflop with a significantly weaker range that is much easier to attack.

Well if they're limping tens preflop, they're not a LAG. They're weak passive. So if that's this guy jus snap fold it without even a though in your head.

In other words Tememakus, you got lost in the hand because you didn't fly ahead of the airplane. I'm never raising in that spot with those stack sizes if I had to fold to a raise. To me that's horrible, but that's just me (I had some of the best constructive critisizm instructors both in poker and in life so don't take the critisizm the wrong way); whenever I decide to raise, no matter what spot it is, I always know in my mind what I'm doing vs a re- raise or vs a jam. That way you can tell a lot easier if the raise is really worth it. When this guy donked out on that flop, it's hardly ever a draw. So if that was me I'd be calling hoping the board pairs or I can get to SD without going broke unimproved.

Actually if you look at this closely you can see the deduction. Replace "feels" with "is" if it makes you feel better: "Folding is too tight, limping is too weak. Therefore there is only one option".

Yes, this opponent will check-fold a significant amount of flops (because I can utilize the range advantage I have from being the preflop raiser).

Of course his decision making should get easier as the SPR gets smaller. But even on this flop, facing the raise and a massively reduced SPR, he was visibly struggling and unsure.

It's not going to be "fun" exactly if he starts playing back at me; but I am comfortable facing aggression from LAGs - I'm a tight player and have dealt with such players for many years. Of course if I flop nothing and he plays back at me then I have an easy fold; that's one of the advantages of playing these hands that have good visibility postflop (compared to offsuit broadways, for example).

You have to remember that 65s is played as part of a range of hands. You appear to be looking only at this hand in isolation. Every range has a weak bottom and in this case it is 65s. It's necessary to have a small percentage of suited connectors in my isolation raising range. Otherwise - if I have, for example, only broadway combinations - villain can attack me relentlessly on low boards, safe in the knowledge that my range is capped at overpairs.

It would have made things easier if you have just described him originally as a loose-passive, weak-tight player who is going to play fit-and-fold on the flop in the face of your obvious "range advantage."

Nice troll calling him a "LAG."

I'm out. You win.

Thanks yes in hindsight I agree that the flop raise was unwise; I simply wanted to protect my hand as I felt it was vulnerable.

I would have bet 25-33% pot on this board.

Definitely I should flat flop and reassess on the turn; agreed.

***REVEAL***

I called. Villain had pocket nines with the 9 of hearts (a massive overplay of course). We ran it twice and I won both runouts, despite being behind when the money went in:

But n.b. I only need 33% equity to call with the price I'm getting, so even if he turns his hand face up it's still a simple call.

Piosolver agreed with the call; it's making about $80 - not a fortune, but still a lot better than folding:

Again. 65s aint it vs a loose aggressive player. You can keep repeating the same concepts but vs a Loose aggressive player who is not even 100bb deep 65s simply aint it. You tighten your range vs LOOSE AGGRESSIVE not widen. 65s plays better vs a tight villain not vs a loose aggro player.

Fwiw, nobody is arguing with anything you've said in regards to playing in position vs a fish. It's the hand selection people question and I agree with that.

What's the bottom of your iso-raising range vs a limp?

It would really depend on the type of player which is hard to pin point because you've gone from loose aggro fish to essentially a tag, but 65s isn't in my isoing range vs a loose aggro fish.

You disagree, which is fine and I don't think we'll find common ground, I just think you'll hate your life far more often than enjoy it playing hands like 65s vs that type of player.

Fwiw, I don't like limping either, I think this sub is still living in 2004 but this is a rare situation where I don't mind the limp.

I'd argue that not all LAGs play the same way preflop; especially those who are not that up to speed with math and theory.

Sure, you're right that I had not considered what I would do if he jammed, and it came as a surprise. At the end of the day I'm getting a very good price and have effectively priced myself in to call fairly wide (regardless of whether or not that's ideal). The question really is what is the cutoff point now for hand strength with regards to the hands I call with. The dealer actually pointed out after the hand that I am relatively close to the top of my range here after isolating preflop. Aside from the obvious flushes and the few combos of high overpairs with a heart, I don't have many stronger hands. For one thing, I have few sets at all after isolating (just pocket sixes some of the time). Do you think I should only call with flushes? Surely that is exploitable as it's a pretty small fraction of my range?

I'm surprised that you don't think a LAG would donk with the bare ace flush draw; often that's their bread and butter, no?

I agree; in hindsight calling on the flop and reassessing on the turn would have been preferable - I just wanted to protect my hand.

So what's the bottom of your iso-raising range vs a limp from a tight/loose player?

Villain in this hand is loose aggro and will regularly go hard after pots with semi-bluffs and airballs.

If I completely whiff with 65s and he starts turning up the heat then of course I have an easy fold.

This makes 65s an even worse iso.............

Maybe top 10-11%, TT-99 being lowest pocket pair. Probably limping more vs this player.

You have to remember that 65s is played as part of a range of hands. You appear to be looking only at this hand in isolation. Every range has a weak bottom and in this case it is 65s. It's necessary to have a small percentage of suited connectors in my isolation raising range. Otherwise - if I have, for example, only broadway combinations - villain can attack me relentlessly on low boards, safe in the knowledge that my range is capped at overpairs.

I'm folding 65s most of the time - but some of the time it's included in my iso-raising range for board coverage and balance.

Okay so 99 is your lowest pocket pair for isolating (which is pretty tight in my opinion). What are your lowest broadway and suited connector combos?

I hope you can appreciate that limping in general is lower EV than iso-raising?

Wrong wrong and wrong.

1) its on YOU to provide the logic behind limping against the advice of almost every winning player and solver in existence

2) if you call 65s “6-high” again im going to go insane. Its a good hand. Trying to paint it in an extra bad light is just weird posturing, we are trying to reach a conclusion on the best course of action, not try to win a petty internet argument. We are all on the same team.

3) playing in position against weak loose players is a winning formula

4) low suited cards dont play well multiway, im not going over this again you should read more threads.