4bet pot against tilted fish

Flop is super standard.

I probably check back the river unless I'm comfortable folding to a check-shove.

Yeah, I cbet 1/5p. Gives us more room to go for another street of value later.

I think another street is too ambitious now. Ranges are very narrow and still includes a lot of Ax and 99 from a passive player.

Sorry she showed you 76s :p

I sometimes even go 10% pot flop in 4bet pots, you have a LOT more room for micro flop bets in 4bet/5bet pots than people realize. I'm not sure if GTO approved but I would have done it here. 10s, KQs which you block I realize are snap folding, JJ/KK likely calls, and tilted fish might even raise with AK. I should mention I would also do it here with AK and AA against competent regs. Not just with my hands that missed the flop.

We’re 200bbs deep and Preflop sizing was a little small (did she minclick her 3b?) so unfortunately I don’t think we can go THAT small.

It breaks my trolling heart :’(

Haha it's not troll it's good and trollish. Have to keep your fish confused. Your suggestion of 20% works well too. A lot of people think they have to bet 1/3 flop or check . I was just giving other (better) options.

V doesn't seem all that passive.

I think the street to get frisky on (b, maybe 3b shove if possible) is the turn.

Think you get shown KK a lot here. Accordingly I feel like betting, but I'm not calling a shove.

Also, you opened to 15, given this is 2/5? If so, and if you've the aggressive image in her head I imagine a 2+2er does, the minclick is awfully nutted IME. But includes KK. Bet river then, and see what happens. I can't imagine her with quad aces, just sitting there and potentially letting you click back.

i cant imagine they ever check the river w a better hand, also turn sizing doesn't really look like you're beat to me. think 50-60$ is ok and figure it out if u get raised probably lean towards call, would probably just bet range otf for like 10% but can see merit to checking stuff vs bad / tilty ppl as i think its easier to stab than xr if they want to spew. standard is to x river but think theres merit to betting in described dynamic. standard is also not to 4b so idk, if u dont think she gets here w bunch of random garbage i wouldnt 4b 200bb deep ep bb

I would bet flop small, like 15%, but anywhere from 10-25% is fine. There are plenty of hands to get value from on the flop. You might even bet turn small and check back river depending on how sticky villain is. Check back river.

And yes, you can totally go 10% pot on the flop. If you had AK, you could go 10% pot on the flop and go a little less than pot on the turn and a little less than pot on river to get in stacks. Or bet smaller on turn and larger on river.

How did villain 3bet to 30? Did you open to 15 and she basically min clicked it? If so I like the 4bet and sizing.

Oops, I'm not sure why I didn't include my opening size. Yes I opened to $15 and Villain made a tiny 3bet to $30. To submersible's point, I would normally just call a 3bet with this hand when I'm going to be HU in position (esp. 200bb deep) but I felt like it made sense to 4bet against this tiny sizing. All of her previous 3bets were to $45 IIRC. I have no clue what the min 3bet means here.

If you bet something like $25 on the flop, how do you proceed if Villain check raises? Call flop and fold turn to a reasonable size bet?

10% pot is something I've seen online players do in 4bet pots on Ace or King high flops but I don't know that I've ever done it myself or studied it. I considered that it might have made sense after the hand though. My hope with checking back is that (again, to submersible's point) she would make some kind of spewy stabs against XB. Like I could see this player monkey betting with JJ or TT whereas I'm not sure if those hands call very much more than a small flop bet. It is sort of hard for her to have any air in this spot though, so I'm not sure if she would be bluffing much. I guess I thought that checking back would make it easier to get to showdown cheaply as well but that's probably not true.

I didn't pick up on the 3bet sizing, to a normal sizing I would almost always just call this. 4bet size does seem pretty large even against the minclick, if I did 4bet here it'd probably be to max 80.

Flop I'd bet small here with pretty much everything. 40-50.

River...Is she 3betting TT BB vs EP and then calling a big 4bet? Even if she is it's pretty thin, she may well pot control with weak Ax (although "weak" is relative, she's not going to end up in a 4bet pot with ATo is she?) and KK. You're probably not getting called by worse often enough to make this bet profitable.

The question of sizing pre-flop is interesting. Normally I agree that something like 2.5x is good here in position but I think it makes sense to go bigger against a min 3bet? Especially when we are deep. I could be off on that. I play online on a site where a lot of fish min 3bet pre-flop and I always use a big 4bet sizing. I guess it would be good for me to study what is actually the best way to proceed against this sort of sizing.

I agree I would call here pre-flop against a normall 3bet, even against a small size like $45. To be honest, I considered just calling against $30 but then decided my hand was too good and that 4bet is going to work well in position against a fish.

I think the weird pre-flop situation threw me off a bit post-flop because I do recognize this as a spot where I would normally range bet for something like $50 but then I just didn't. It's also possible that I am just scared money playing 200bb deep at $2/$5, since I typically play $1/$2.

She doesn't sound very passive. I like the check on the flop, and turn call is fine. I probably bet ~$100 on river and fold to a raise. I highly doubt she raises w/o a worse hand, but she might shrug call with one.

$50 on the flop. They'll c/r their good **** and call the rest. As played, betting $100 and folding to c/r. Nobody at Mohegan 2/5 c/r bluffs rivers, or at all, and they will call everything here.

So I went ahead and simmed this using standard 4b and calling ranges, and it does indeed still prefer 1/10p sizing, so apparently the 1/10p bet in 4bp thing isn’t simply a matter of the spr (because in terms of SPR, this is basically a 3bp 100bbs deep).

But obviously we don’t have standard ranges. Villain is a tilted fish doing weird minclick stuff and we’re showing up with QQ, so range dynamics might be more similar to a 3bp as well.

Idk dude, I hate deciphering solver’s flop sizing sometimes. Sometimes it’s just like “what’s your deal man?”

I mean this is a 3x your raise 3bet, but there are also two callers so pot was already $52 and she just went to $45. She then called it off for $555 more with AQo, so lol at her not calling a bunch of Ax hands she's never supposed to have for only $60 more in this hand.

I don't mind tiny flop bet, and maybe half pot turn, then check back river.

But check flop, and call turn... it's super hard for hero to be bluffing on the river. Maybe she'll call with JJ/TT/88 on the river for $80, who knows.

Yes this is true, I would not be surprised if this player showed up with something like AJo or A7s.

A couple of others posted that this player shouldn't really be classified as passive. I agree with that as well, that's an error in my description/read. I guess I just automatically label fishy players who do things like limp/call and cold call raises as loose/passive but this woman was 3betting on the light side and bluffing post flop so she might be more of a bad LAG.

Glad to see you and Javanewt coming in advocating for doing something close to what I did in this hand.

The result of the hand was that I bet river for $150. Villain didn't take too long and raised to $375. I folded.

I agree people don't bluff here but it was frustrating because it felt like my hand was face up and I still folded getting a great price. Think I just botched this hand. I would have much preferred that I bet flop and turn small to XB river.

After checking back flop, it probably isn't too big of a mistake to bet/fold river but I think checking back would have been good too (likely better). In game, it felt like it was too tight to check back flop and check back river but I no longer think that's true. Thanks to everyone who responded to the thread, I got some good feedback and I think my game will improve as a result.

Honestly, I don't think she was bluffing river. She has the possibility of every AX in her hand.

If I were you with an A, I would have played it the way you did (except for folding river 😉 )

One of my personal rules of thumb in these types of spots is if I'm not calling a raise otr I'm just checking it back, especially vs someone on tilt who could sense weakness and turn 77/88 into a bluff. We have SDV vs a lot of her range.

Yeah, biggest reason I've taken a liking to betting very small IP (when SPR and board texture allows me to) is because of how straightforward it is to play when you keep the betting lead for so cheap. They're usually auto-checking to you OTF, now when they x/c, they're all but auto-checking the turn (and if you bet again, you've likely bought yourself a free showdown OTR) so you're making it very unlikely you're dealing with any more than 1 big bet.

As you suggest, you can bet small twice and buy yourself an easy xx OTR, which basically perfectly prices the value of your hand at the equivalent of 1 big bet. I prefer to check-back turn and snap off bluff leads since I know they still have like 90% of their preflop range, which includes a ton of air that knows their only prayer of winning the pot is with a river stab. I don't mind peeling one street when we get x/r'ed OTF. Etc.

Other than donking, the line we're really worried about is x/r flop WITH ADDITIONAL BULLETS thereafter, which is kind of a suicide mission against our range.

This is such horrible advice it hurts the eyes.

You should absolutely learn how to bet/fold. Checking back rivers by default because you might get raised is terrible.

Good post, thanks. Very simple and logical explanation of how I should have viewed this spot.

It has nothing to do with "learning how to bet/fold". This is against a tilting player who over values her hands. If I was happily calling off a raise then I would bet but every situation and villain you run into, the more experience you get, is gonna be different (not to mention every Ax hand beats us which she seems to love).

Doesn't matter how you explain it. Checking back rivers because you're not calling raises as a default is terrible.