4-bet bluff with KJs?

Snap fold. When a passive player cold-calls a 3-bet from the blinds is not the right time to squeeze.

As for the "if raise how much?" question, what are stack sizes? Would usually be a shove at 100BBs, but again, should only be for value in this dynamic.

What are the stack sizes?

The BB being passive and cold calling 3 bets concerns me. I'd hate to be blasted off my equity if either comes over the top.

I think this is a call and play your position. I'm not 100% sure. Knowing the ranges could sway me to a fold.

$800 stacks

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SB range is wide vs B open.
BB is likely 99-QQ, AJs, AQ and up.

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thought it was pure call but looks like a mix (r / c)

It's a fold. KJ is the wrong hand to turn into a bluff, because it is dominated too easily and has poor equity when opponents do not fold.

Passive player range might be something like tt+/aqo+ and be uncapped.

$225 would be my size.

KJs is pretty strong for me to turn into a bluff in this configuration, but between your 4x sizing, the small sizing for the 4b, players being far more passive in these games (even if he’s 3bing *relatively* often for a low stakes live reg), and the cold caller forcing us to be more linear, it’s probably not a bad hand selection.

105 is a chunky raise from sb, is that standard from him? Is he playing 3b or fold from sb? Would he have T9s, 77 pure, or does he flat sometimes?

I agree that the passive bb is a big problem. I don't like jamming and I don't think a very small 4b like 225 will have the fold equity we need. 225 may have decent fold equity against TAG but from the passive player he may only see the great pot odds and we may still get called from hands like AQo, and he may have hands as strong as QQ, AK.

If the passive player is like whale status bad-loose passive then maybe we call here. Also looking for TAG player to only play 3b or fold from the SB, have hands like T9s and 77, and 5x is his only 4b size from sb. If TAG plays SB flats and deviates his sizes the more I lean towards fold.

Also note with TAG that 3b and ton on left I might consider sizing down pre to 15, but it we also want to target passive players behind, so it's not super clear. Obviously TAG on our left is not ideal.

Result:

Yeah, he let you off the hook there, lol

I wouldn't 4b more than 1/3 of your stack. You're dangerously close to being price in to call off a jam when you go that big.

Generally you want the spr to be somewhere between 1-2 when you 4b, maybe a bit bigger when you are deep. And the spr can be slightly smaller than 1 on the other extreme end.

In position ~100bb deep 2.1-2.2x is a standard 4b size, at 200bb + slightly bigger. Out of position ~100bb 2.8x or so is standard. 200bb out of position it is closer to 3.5-4x. If you are really deep, 200bb+, sometimes you want to 4b to a size where v can still 5bet 2-2.2x and the spr can still be ~1 or slightly greater. But sometimes because live raise sizes are big and because there are cold callers, iso raises, etc, this reduces the spr significantly. So generally if a 2.1x 4b is going to make the spr less than 1, as a rule, just jam. Same rule for 5bets if you are that deep.

Also, geez, villain is so horrible. God forbid you gift your whole stack on a super dry flop when he has the nuts. Potentially saved you a lot. Imagine somehow you get to the turn and it brings a K or J or fd and stacks get in. Good thing fish are so bad they literally won't let you bluff.

Rule of thumb is to keep it below 25% of your stack if possible, but you can go up to close to 30% of your stack before it's committing.

Your size is definitely too big, but fortunately that's not really what got you in trouble. Having them back shove and you're committed to calling off is the nut worst of sticking 39% of your stack in with a bluff.

I have a hard time believing they had what they say they did lol. Just sounds like someone who doesn't hand read well enough to know how to lie about their hand.

the actual sim is kind of interesting. if u got gtow closest approximation i can get w/o paying for straddle sims again is the straddle / ante one and bb is folding ~11% of the time to the 4b if btn 4bs and sb folds. so i think the ev is coming from postflop / balancing out having premiums (debatable if this is necessary in any environment given this situation is never going to come up and u can just 4b sb 3b when there isnt a cold call and no one will ever notice even if they have a hud, let alone live). the other worry is people that coldcall 3bs usually have poor fundamentals so its questionable if u want to try to bluff them in v low spr situation where you're going to be using like 1/10 psb and stuff and relying on them making large folds.

i think unlikely v had 99 lol

It does seem hard to believe that V had 99, but he was a noob type player, and he said it really sincerely. I actually believe him.

Appreciate the sims and analysis submerisible. My thoughts below:

Yes, a <1/2p 4b is essentially the deep-game cash player's equivalent of a go-and-go play. The folds primarily come postflop, which is why you should not have as linear of a range as you usually would making a penultimate raise IP.

Yes-and-no. Yes, having a perceived balanced range increases the EV of your value hands, but that's not the source of EV for our bluffs. That EV is derived from the fact that it's dead obvious that our range is overwhelmingly premiums here, which I think is applicable to anyone not drooling on their cards or a complete maniac (or perhaps some game-flow/history).

I 100% agree they have poor fundamentals, but barring reads, I do not assume those poor fundamentals lead them to stack off with split pair 160bbs deep when our line is screaming premium or x/jam whiffed AQ or whatever. They absolutely are cold calling the 21bb 3b too much, they're probably overfolding that 11% mark versus our 4b, they're probably folding more than the minuscule amount they're supposed to fold to a 1/10p bet on an A-high flop, they're definitely not finding enough x/jams, they're letting us realize too much of our equity, etc.

I mean hell, I f***ing hate being in villain's shoes and am absolutely not finding enough of the aggressive lines to counterplay it.

So someone with poor fundamentals who doesn't stackoff light is sort of the perfect combination for go-and-go type plays. (And this applies to the classic ISOing a limper with a weak hand and taking it down with a cbet play that fish on heaters are always so enamored with [until they overuse and it starts backfiring].)

Of course you're not gonna wanna do this against a euro sicko or the 10/20 fish who's splashing around at 2/5 until a seat at a bigger game opens up or whatever.

Alllll that being said, ngl I broke my own advice and made a shitty raise size calc and recommended something that's a LITTLE small for my personal comfort level, but I still think everything in this particular post still applies.

Didn't want to side-track my own post, but I did want to say making plays like these do matter EVEN in the context of increasing the EV of our nutted hands.

I agree it doesn't matter whether you have a bluff in this particular configuration because it'll never show up again and it shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I mean, nothing that happens in these games should have happened in the first place. Getting action is just the function of the sum of all of these 0EV aggressive plays and shocking showdowns on all the infinite nodes of branches that don't exist in theory.

It's certainly not the most important point, but still thought a point worth making.

I would just fold to the 5x 3bet pre. You mentioned nothing about his range which is the single most important factor when deciding to 4bet bluff (TAG is too general, there's 101 different types of "TAGs"). Also, you sizing was too big, you would probably have to call if he jams since we can't bet almost half our stack pre then fold to a raise. It should be 25% or less in general. If we don't know him, I would just fold.

We 4bet light when we know the 3bettor has a very wide range, even from OOP. The hand was a button press but at least it worked out.

4bet to 310 is a punt, if your gonna 4bet i’d rather just 4bet jam.

Calling is ok too, play a pot in position vs lag with wide ranges and a passive fish.

Folding is fine too obviously.