Winstar $4/$8 rivered baby flush

Why would you c/r the flop here from sb.

Then you bet 6 high on the turn and question whether you should bet a flush on the river?

flop cr is bad your equity is not great here and you cant take free cards. in LHE when OOP its best not to be aggro with draws like this. plus on this board BB could have all the two pairs like 82, 72, 62, etc and sets and there is a good chance when you CR that he will 3b leaving you isolated vs a range that crushes yours

check the turn

river is an obvious bet/call. in general dont care about rivered flushes in LHE. i just bet my hand that i thought was good on the turn and pay the extra bet if i get raised and shrug. im guessing about 75% of the time they dont have a flush.

ps i used to b/f the turn/river a lot in LHE because i took pride in not calling when i was beat. i dont really do that anymore i just pay it off. im near 100% certain i would have made more if i just paid these things off always as ive been shown more than 1 bluff.

Not really a fan of the flop check raise. River I would definitely bet. I think even a 7 would call the river at these stakes. We don’t make enough money by check/calling value hands in limit being scared of getting raised.

I wouldn't have raised the flop either, but BB shouldn't have those combinations: he's the one who raised preflop.

What’s even worse about the flop raise is bb can three bet and blow out the other hands

good point i missed that action

i would change those combos to overpairs which are even more likely because BB cbet the flop multiway.

Y'all dont think our flop equity is more than 25%?

You must have forgotten one of the rules of holdem:

Someone always has JT.

Maybe but we have the worst position and we don’t want bb to be able to three bet everyone out of his pot

For whatever it contributes to the discussion, BB raised pre quite a bit and usually showed a big pair or big cards. I'm not sure he raises 77 or 88 from the BB - TT probably 99 maybe, 77 and 88? This villain? I don't think so. And he definitely checks his option on 78. Not a high probability of a flop 3-bet from him with an overpair or overcards. So I don't hate my flop raise.

Here's what should have occurred to me though: if I think someone else is drawing to a bigger flush, I didn't really pick up any new equity on the turn. And the backdoor draw I thought I had on the flop isn't really a backdoor draw. I either need to play all 3 postflop streets like my flush will be the best hand, or play none of them like my flush will be the best hand.

It sounds like the consensus in this thread (at least on that topic) is "don't worry about flush over flush, just bet your damn hand." agreed?

Yes, I agree.

There is no reason to think anyone else had a backdoor flush draw that got there.

Also, no one is going to put you on a flush, given the aggression you showed on the flop and turn.

There are several two-pair combos that might raise you on this river: KQ, Q8, and Q7. I would bet/call the river and expect to win most of the time.

The flop check-raise is awesome.

The river is just a simple bet imo. Most of their calling hands suck too much to bet the river. I don't see any advantages to check-calling. We're just letting them off the hook.

I feel like it is super important to stay focused on events that happen the most often. We rarely get raised here, but we often get called by worse. So it makes sense to simply trust in our ability to find the correct play when these rare events actually occur.

Unguarded, can you explain why you like the flop raise here?

It has always been my philosophy to spew cheaply most of the time when I have the opportunity to do so. To most players, we look like a monkey when we hit our straight or backdoor them with our flush. We also look like a monkey when we dump a bunch of bets into the pot and fold or bluff the river and get caught.

There's also the "give action to get action" element. People are more likely to want to play with us if we seem a bit spewy.

As an extreme example, how would we play on a live stream that's exceptionally juicy? We would loosen up and seize every opportunity to spew cheaply to make sure that we get invited back next week. We might make similar adjustments in a juicy home game. And so on.

Check out hand quiz #11 in the Flop Play section in the SSHE book.

For those who don't have the book handy, hero has 7♣6♣ in the big blind. UTG raises, 3 coldcallers, we call.

5 players, 10.5sb, flop K♣8♥4♣

We are first to act and the book recommends checkraising here to try to maximize the value of our big draw.

In the book, hero has 12 outs, in my hand, I have about 9.5.
In the book, there are 5 players. In my hand, there were 6 players.
In the book, we don't know whether or not UTG bet and we don't know how many people called when it came time for hero to decide to call or raise (folding was completely totally and in all other ways out of the question). In my hand, when the action got back to us we knew it was a 4-way pot.
I would argue that in the book, there was a slightly higher chance somebody already had top pair due to the K on the board than in my hand where the top card was an 8, not just because people are more likely to play Ks than 8s in general, but because in the book, a UTG raise is probably assumed to be a tighter range than this specific villain's BB raising range in my game. I'm not sure how much that matters though, because we're extremely unlikely to win by spiking a pair in either hand.

I'm having trouble feeling like my flop checkraise in that hand is more than a small mistake at worst. It may seem like I've made up my mind but I promise I am open to further discussion if there is any.

I think you're mostly right here. I don't think all of your OESD outs are good, but even if you have only 6-8 outs, check raising the flop is a small mistake at best--at least as long as you do not blindly barrel off on every turn card.

Having a straight+flush draw is not the same as having an open ender.