2024 World Series of Poker May 28th to July 17th ***No Spoilers***

For the time being coaching advice from the rail, etc. is perfectly fine and not against any rule, using solvers to get that advice a few feet away from the final table and giving it out to the player every couple minutes is, as stated in the rules.

Is it that hard to understand.

Solutions are so captain obvious easy and will make event better

Have final table on several hours delay and have it in a smaller intimate arena where spectators are higher up and thus can actually follow the action (what a novel idea)

The spotlight will be on the table itself, and background won’t be a bunch of random people talking to each other (because when you are there you can’t hear players nor follow action very well)

But people are allowed to vent as it hit a new low this year. And the reason is obvious, it’s not just talking to people, it’s people staring at a laptop

I mean, I agree that people need to stop being such big babies about Dom and Tamayo, but then to lump the very legit hatred of pokergo with "outrage culture". Is pretty stupid. lol

I do agree with this, although it should probably be disallowed going forwards. Keeping the players separated from their coaches/rails, except for on breaks would be my preference.

They were running sims with stack sizes and custom ranges for their opponent, then producing the ranges for Tamayo to play. This is definitely cheating and beyond your initial premise of merely chatting to a coach or team of coaches. Nitsche has admitted they were running simplified sims. This shouldn't be allowed and is cheating. Especially when, before each tournament, the staff were announcing that any kind of RTA was not allowed within the tournament areas.

Not Espen

People who reject GTO to the point that they haven't even looked at any solutions, get this idea that all you got to do is look at a few solves and then poker is solved, completely unaware just how how many permutations and how complicated a lot of those said solutions are. It's impossible to just "memorize them", you have to dedicate a **** load of time to looking at them and trying to figure out why certain hands fit in folding/calling/raising/ etc ranges, especially since a lot of them are counter intuitive.

DOM streams playing his DTO app all the time, and even he will make some pretty big EV mistakes on occasion. That's how difficult it is.

Do you guys get outraged when you see athletes on the sideline getting feedback from coaches, or *gasp* looking at film on a tablet in between breaks?

The truth is that solvers have been great for the game. It used to be that you needed to have connections and/or wealth to have access to the best available information out there in order to get good at the game, but now, while it still requires money, everyone has access to the best information in the world, and are on much more equal footing in terms of ability to excel in the game as long as they put in the work. (poker is still by no means a pure meritocracy, but you no longer have to be part of the club to have an opportunity to get highly skilled at this game.

The fact is that everyone who is so outraged about the ME fall under two categories: 1. People who used to be winning players until GTO made strategies much more sophisticated and accessible to a lot more people. 2. People who were never that good to begin with, but were able to delude themselves into thinking they were much better than they were until this objective data came along that shattered their sense of grandeur.

Real-time assistance after and before hands is, by definition, not real-time.

I guess if you are updating the inputs constantly then there's a dynamic element to the assistance, but I interpret real-time to indicate something that influences your decision during a hand. I'm thinking of the guy who pulled out the push-fold charts at the table in 2016 and was told to put them away. You can't reference study materials during a hand, but I'd think it would be okay to go over to the rail and look at a push-fold chart after the last hand and before the next hand since you do not have live cards. It's not affecting a hand that's in progress.

I still question how materially different the Tamayo stuff is from giving Shaun Deeb a cut of your action, posting him up on your rail, and asking him for advice between hands. I don't see a tremendous difference apart from the fact that there's more general disdain for solvers and computers than there is for a crusher coaching you, even if the outcome will be much the same. If I have a wizard watching all the hands and feeding me advice between hands, does it really matter if it's a computer or a human? Either way I am referencing third parties between hands to gain an edge.

"Outrage culture" lol give me a break. Sometimes it's ok to be mad at people for cheating. Nice yap though Tamayo.

It was explicitly banned by the WSOP already, we don't need another rule just for them to enforce their rules.

Also wow you must be a real brainlet. "ZOMG PEOPLE ARE TALKING STRAT BETWEEN HANDS THAT IS THE SAME AS RUNNING LIVE SIMS WITH STACK SIZES AND RANGES!" Jesus christ what a worthless post.

Solvers have been absolutely terrible for the game and it's going to get way worse going foward as the technology gets faster.

A bunch of tanking nerds who suck every ounce of fun out of live games and are clearly cheating online on a mass scale (and in this case cheating at the final table) is not good for the game.

Now you definitely can make the argument they're good for people who put it a ton of work with them especially those who were never good at figuring out things to begin with but to say theyre good overall is laughable.

Wsop should have stopped this earlier. But going forward wsop and poker rooms in general should be banning people who use them during play. And this includes between hands.

Turning poker into a race to the bottom and a contest of who has the best technology is not good for the game.

You never had to be wealthy to be good at poker that's also quite the funny statement. In fact most good players in the past grew up poor.

I missed the last 3, was the QQ folder checking sims between hands or just on break?

Not outraged but there’s definitely widespread opinion that analytics and being overly “nerdy” about every aspect of sports to seek minute edges has ruined a lot of the enjoyment and entertainment factor.

Basketball with too many 3 pointers, baseball with the “launch angle” batting ideas, soccer becoming too micromanaged and tactical which chokes out the artistry in the game. Probably other examples in other sports to

It's also just a terrible comparison. Poker Is a strategy game, sports are physical.

The rail can literally tell Tomoya what hands to play next hand preflop nobody can make me hit like Aaron Judge.

Guys are running RTA online telling them how to play hands. They're literally just live bots at that point.

They can tell him what hands to play, but then he actually has to play the hands for himself without further assistance. Unless you think that in the short time he's on the rail they're also telling him how to play every spot beyond the initial preflop action.

A golf coach can tell Jon Rahm what club to use, but then Rahm still has to hit the shot.

If this was intentionally done, this is like the best marketing stunt IÂ’ve ever seen. I directly looked up the site.

It‘s no RTA and I don‘t think he‘s gaining a looot of EV to get informations between hands, but I think I would ban it, it really looks bad.

I also don‘t understand the panic about solvers. Most pros either can‘t correctly read the results of the sims, or are extremely slow in adapting them. The solver only gives you the solution for one path and your job is to find as many paths as possible where this solution has effects on and what‘s the adaption. No offense to Dominik, but that‘s why he created a gto software and is not just crushing every game. Oh and the solver agreed to fold QQ pre?

The computer won't make any mistakes, it's orders of magnitude different.

No. It does not clearly say so. During the announcement he said there is the possibility of you being banned, not as a certainty. Tamayo, although he could have possibly been banned in accordance with the announcement was not at any point during play. Therefore, Tamayos win stands. Next year fix this.

Wait was he literally going in between every hand to the computer or just on the breaks ? If between every hand he can have a sim (even if just preflop) of the next hand that’s the equivalent of RTA right ?

Well, yes but Im not sure theres any proof his friend
was running sims related to the final table.Perhaps he just happened to be running unrelated but similar solves for fun during his cheering as a way to relieve stress.

You want it to be popular with people who will donate to you in the future?

Just because the severity of enforcement is at the discretion of the floor doesn’t mean it’s not against the rules…

Not even close to the same thing. These sports examples are laughable.

Taking it further RTA can tell someone exactly how to play a hand online. Some golf coach can't tell me or you how to hit a ball like Rahm.

Great video by Doug.

i will say despite all this drama that really only works well against an amateur against a pro at most if they had an edge on you it lets you narrow that edge but card distribution and exploitation of solver play is a real issue.

Great, but they can't use RTA like that in this case. Unless you think they can memorize how exactly to play every possible hand in a minute. All they're able to get in that amount of time is basic preflop stuff.