Superuser Caught on GGPoker - "MoneyTaker69" Thread
User "MoneyTaker69" is alleged to be superusing on GG Poker.
In December, Moneytaker won at 90bb/100 on GG Poker in 8,900 hands playing 53% VPIP. Soon after, he binked a $150 Sunday MTT for $47,586 while playing an extremely volatile strategy, which aroused a lot of suspicion. GG Poker has acknowledged the situation privately and is preparing to address it, but it's important for the public to know immediately due to the significance of superusing.
The Results
The following results graph comes from Smarthand, a site that tracks online poker results. MoneyTaker won at 90bb/100 in December playing 53/17.
Typically, a player with this VPIP/PFR ratio would be in the -50bb/100 range. Even if we were impossibly generous and said he was breakeven, this run would be a statical anomaly. For a -50bb recreational? Impossible.
Here is a primedope simulation of the probability of a breakeven player having this run.
The following is a simulation of possible runs for a player with a given winrate using primedope's variance calculator. The light blue line at the top of the graph represents the "Best" run, which is the luckiest run a person could have in 1,000 trials.
This is a -50bb player playing 9000 hands. Their luckiest run is around -10 buyins. Mokeytaker won 77 buy-ins.
Additionally, MoneyTaker won a $150 GG Masters Sunday MTT, which is a big open field tournament. This makes the possibility of chip dumping or targeting specific players with a virus much less likely.
The Hands
The following hands were collected by various users as examples of likely foul play.
How is he cheating?
Based off his play, the most natural explanation is that he can see the cards. He rarely puts in money significantly behind or calls the river with the worst hand. Also, his winrate is so high that RTA could not possibly explain it.
It's unclear how he's able to see others' cards, and it's possible he's not the only one exploiting a glitch in the system. A post on 2+2 highlighted a group of suspicious accounts that played for brief stints and won for >30bb/100, which is particularly difficult on GG due to their rake structure.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
There is no clear evidence that the players highlighted in the above post are superusing, but it's not unreasonable to suspect that this could be a larger issue at scale if done by hackers that want to be less obvious than running >50% VPIP.
Hacker Group
"MoneyTaker" is a hacker group. It's unclear if this account is in any way associated with them or if it's just incidental, but worth mentioning.
What's Next?
As a community, we await GG Poker's response. I'm confident they'll do the right thing and share everything they know about this incident shortly.
I lost 60k on gg to Bryns cheating stable. Thanks bryn. Scumbag.
This is the most boring legit cheating scandal I've ever seen!
-The biggest poker site
-Proven "super user" caught
All we get out of it is one afternoon of "breaking news"! Then the site comes out and admits to a security flaw, blah , blah , blah, it's fixed now.
That's it? No drop in traffic. No trouble for the site since unregulated. No Reddit or 2+2 discoveries about other "super users" going back for years. The last 80% of the many pages of this thread of just people going back and forth over nothing new.
What a rip off, is it because the money won wasn't that huge? This is nothing compared to past scandals.
What a rip off, is it because the money won wasn't that huge? This is nothing compared to past scandals.
seems fairly big and overwhelmingly likely other superusers have been exploiting this. all that's missing is an admission from GG, or other cheaters like moneytaker who were this blatant in their cheating. GG willl maintain this was a one off because they have to. also remains to be seen whether we'll see a run on the bank that leads to cashout issues
You do realize that most recreational players do not read 2+2 and/or other poker forums/news?
Obv the majority is going to continue to play. If u really expected that because of this news, everyone is going to just stop playing on GG then maybe u are the real idiot here?
Hell, I DO read 2+2 and I didn't know about this until Doug Polk's video showed up on my subs feed. And you can tell by the date of this post, and the one I'm quoting how badly I'm behind on this thread.
This is the most boring legit cheating scandal I've ever seen!
-The biggest poker site
-Proven "super user" caught
All we get out of it is one afternoon of "breaking news"! Then the site comes out and admits to a security flaw, blah , blah , blah, it's fixed now.
That's it? No drop in traffic. No trouble for the site since unregulated. No Reddit or 2+2 discoveries about other "super users" going back for years. The last 80% of the many pages of this thread of just people going back and forth ov
if you are dumb enough to play on this site already then superusers probably arent going to deter you
"but these games are SO soft bro"
These off-shore sites don't do anything about security issues until it's too late, and then they hide behind "this is all we could recover" as if the players being cheated are made even remotely whole.
Iam not surprised at all
GG proved over the years they are shady AF. When they get rid of sharkscope it was the cherry on top of the cake for them. This moneytaker is probably just 1% of the cheating going on.
I reported a suspected security leak on ACR. Played a person HU (at a moderately impactful stake) who seemed as if they didn't understand how to play poker , but proceeded to play near perfect as far as putting $ in, and also checked back the river only when our hands were a chop of the same hi-card value (Q-hi vs Q-hi, T-hi vs T-hi, enough occasions that it was rather uncanny for a single session). I kept the session going just to have a more extensive hand history, but obviously it fell short of any singularly conclusive data-set. I forwarded it to ACR and expressed by concerns (it was at a higher stake), and they emailed me back that "it wasn't possible for anyone to cheat on their site". It isn't that I was 100%, but their dismissal makes it feel like they really don't care if people are cheating because they still make money.
These sites only care about $, and think any scandal or bad press or security issues will lead to some run on the bank. Pre-UIGEA Pokerstars was proactive about policing cheaters and creating a cool atmosphere with useful features that were player and amateur-friendly, and they thrived because of it. These fools know we don't have better options, so they do the minimum. It goes beyond security. Support has gone downhill across the board. Policing of bot and RTA software has been negligent at best, stables and collusion gets by on a daily basis. It's a "you should police yourself" type environment which is kinda unfortunate for building a game.
Someone has already found ITT chip dumping, presumably money laundering, which gg security didn't catch or act on.
This cheater was extremely blatant, same with potripper and Postle. All had huge VPIP, and made ridiculous calls etc.
I couldn't beat 50 NL currently with GTO and database work being needed. However, I can play NLHE and could use that information to win big in ways that would not be so obvious. Seems likely there were others using that feature who have not been discovered yet.
It seems likely the feature was put in by a programmer, programming manager or someone higher up with the idea of exploiting it. There was no legitimate reason to send that information to the client. Now the the person caught and maybe others may have had nothing to do with GG.
This is why online poker is dead and has been for some time
But whenever that gets brought up people just say salty cuz can’t beat nl200 or some nonsense
GG's £1m flipout New Year promotion was fun - the final stage was played with no one able to see what cards they had, no tables popped up and no one has been paid. Almost like a reverse potripper.
Yep! I'm sure they'll "Remember" to mention this
Always amusing to see poker nerds having no clue about how their customers /recs think
OMG WHY WOULD U PLAY ON GG!!!????
I’ll tell you why. The software is FUN. You can run boards 3 times . Throw things at other players after you lose a pot. Rail your flip outs. Play silly variants like all in or fold or battle royals etc etc
We DONT CARE about the rake. Or that we have little change of actually winning . It’s just fun to deposit a pretty meaningless amount of $ and play some cards and mess around .
As for playing against super users , well yeah that’s obviously not ideal. But tonnes of u respectable (lol) pros are cheating us anyway with your RTA use and ghosting and colluding and stables and whatnot.
Makes little to no difference to recs if we lose our money to ;
-the shadys sites rake trap
-scumbag super users
-scumbag cheating regs
In fact now that I think about it , I’d rather lose to the sites rake. At least GG brings some value
And THATS why traffic won’t go down. Most GG players are not life fish who think endlessy grinding a card game is a worthwhile pursuit in place of a job or owning a business
This is why online poker is dead and has been for some time
But whenever that gets brought up people just say salty cuz can’t beat nl200 or some nonsense
Exactly correct . Same thing that’s heading my way soon lolz
Poker pros who have to audacity to look down on people successful in their lives who dare to play the game for fun.
All the regs will all stick with playing at GG. What options do they have ?
Organise an effective boycott ?
Get some lawyers like I saw someone post! Hah Hahhah don’t make me laugh .
Poker Regs only give a **** about themselves , that’s been proven over and over and is the reason online poker basically sucks compared to the 2005-2010 era
The game goes on
Well isn't this just fantastic
Just thought I'd come and say we told you so .
Over and over and over again
All those members telling ppl to avoid GG and they are a useless scummy site who only care about rake were right again
Greed on all sides is what keeps this **** going
Everyone wants their cut of the BBs from the recs and fall over each other trying to bleed it from them
As for the Israel players the guy mentioned in an earlier post
I seen alot of them at PLO across all stakes and Regular/Rush cash tables.
Strange play style and getting there alot but that was a good while ago
I did find it really strange at the time
the fact that you think 90bb/100 over 9k hands can be a statistical anomaly from an obvious losing strategy player, makes me question your math and poker knowledge.
show your math otherwise you are not adding anything to the thread.
There cannot be any revolutionary math stats technique here that's gona add any insight, and I'll say why.
When you combine an insane statistical anomaly, with observerations that are completely independent of the math-like someone calling down with jack high, no amount of pure math is going to beat common sense, and basic reasoning here, and some simple simulation/statistics.
Yes there can be someone thats struck by lightning 100x a day their whole life but it's more likely there's some reason it happened so much rather than there just needing to be some anomaly. Analyzing a poker cheat isn't like analyzing someone who flipped a coin a few million times and got lucky.
If you see someone flip a coin a million times and get lucky, and you see someone flip a coin a million times and get lucky, and they stared at their crotch every time they got lucky, then how the **** could an abstract statistical technique that's independent of crotch gazing be of any use there?
In any case, I think my explanation here is a bit condescending since most people here already know this. But I want to put it in my own words.
It's kinda amusing that the secret statistics technique here from Mason is being mentioned as if its relevant here. No one's gona power up some any revolutionary stats techniques when solvers allow an approximate view of what the solved game looks like, and its largely useless here. The variance simulation + observing terrible/suspicious play gives you about 99.99% of the information you need here to make a judgement call, and higher level math wont provide any extra insight due to the complexity of poker and its thousands of variables here.
I have 1st class honors degree in math and was a zoom500 reg for several years, and am a self taught data scientist. (I was stroggoz_nz on stars if anyone remembers that reg!). My math education and stats education were largely useless for becoming a solid reg.
All of the people making fun of the book promotion and secret stats knowledge are well justified in doing so. Also whats up with people who sign their name at the end of every post. Your name is already visible in the profile.
Someone has already found ITT chip dumping, presumably money laundering, which gg security didn't catch or act on.
This cheater was extremely blatant, same with potripper and Postle. All had huge VPIP, and made ridiculous calls etc.
I couldn't beat 50 NL currently with GTO and database work being needed. However, I can play NLHE and could use that information to win big in ways that would not be so obvious. Seems likely there were others using that feature who have not been discovered yet.
It seem
Any source on this?
This is what matters. The issue is GG's whole approach to security and how they prioritize speed of release over security, not the isolated incident (which may not be so isolated).
Trying to investigate chipdumping cases/cases with unnaturally high winrates, that doesn't make all that much sense, in the context of this specific issue. If multiple players took advantage of the exploit, it's unlikely they'll have done it as blatantly as MoneyTaker69. If it's been used in a smart way, there'll be no
This is not the first time I've seen this happen. I was part of an investigative team on global poker a couple years back where we managed to find rock solid proof of a bot ring because of global pokers shitty software. We managed to figure out how to make the bots go all in every single hand, due to an improper implementation of their bots on global pokers software that they mistakenly thought was flawless. One of the botters complained we were exploiting them on the forum. Such a criminal mastermind haha.
I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to understand much. In my long career, one thing that I learned is how counterintuitive things based on probability theory can be for some people.
To be specific, I don’t have an estimate for what this person’s standard deviation might be. But the poker site could certainly supply them. I’ve done these calculations for my own results and those of a few friends, but none of us had results like this.
MM
It's pretty counter intuitive to advertise a book repeatedly on a forum of people that really don't read books anymore. I don't know a single winning z500+ skill level reg in the last 2 years that reads books to get good at poker. Books, hell no. Studying piosolver sims 6 hours a day, hell yes.
I don't know, maybe people do read statistics books for fun and to degrade their poker skill. It's possible that they exist.
Okay, His win rate per 100 hands is 90bb.
Do you know what his standard deviation per 100 hands is? I bet you don't. Or did I miss something?
And then given that you know his standard deviation per 100 hands, what's the ratio of his win rate divided by that standard deviation? Then once you have this you can decide if this ratio looks (way) out of line (and in my book there are guidelines for this).
Also, just to point out, the best way that I know of to estimate his standard deviation per 100 hand
So this is what I have wondered since the Pot Ripper days.
In manufacturing, we use statistics for continuous monitoring of processes. Certain (out of control) “signals” drive actions. We have a series of actions for that process we call an OCAP or out of control action plan. The plan is appropriate for the process. But there are 8 generally accepted “rules” all based on STandard Deviation.
In banking transactions are monitored and certain signals drive security actions. I’m not familiar with exactly what those are but it is based on abnormal patterns.
It would be very easy to build in real time monitoring to look for statistically significant signals in near real time on a poker site to at least trigger immediate review of account activity. If in 2024 this is not standard online poker site protocol… I would be asking “why”? Before trusting my money there.
There's at least one other client side exploit: Planet Poker's weak RNG. https://worldpokerdeals.com/blog/planet-...
Edit: Eh, maybe not in the same realm as hacking the actual client, but just as exploitable from the client side.
Lol totally reasonable human
Oh I'm completely reasonable. Zero point debating with idiots on topic their being complete morons about. Besides you don't need me to debate or have a debate. There's almost half million idiots daily playing GG online I'm sure one of them will be along and be stupid enough to debate anyone who wants.
I'll stick around for the comedy forum gold and to roflmfao at the clowns, idiots and court jesters. After all there's a long past history of people using clowns, idiots and court jesters as entertainment.
Cheers!!!
possibly a stupid question but how does one player chip dumping in cash games effect my winrate?
or why should I care?
thnx
So this is what I have wondered since the Pot Ripper days.
In manufacturing, we use statistics for continuous monitoring of processes. Certain (out of control) “signals” drive actions. We have a series of actions for that process we call an OCAP or out of control action plan. The plan is appropriate for the process. But there are 8 generally accepted “rules” all based on STandard Deviation.
In banking transactions are monitored and certain signals drive security actions. I’m not familiar with exa
See the reason is because implementing some AI solution that would flag anomalous behavior would cost money and require at least one human employee to train, configure, and monitor the software, possibly indefinitely.
Your manufacturing industry and banking industry are beholden to certain regulations and market pressures. GG poker doesn’t really worry about these things and therefore has no incentive to spend thousands of dollars implementing a system that they don’t need to continue to be successful.
