Poker sites ordered to pay back player losses (400k) in the Netherlands
https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/1086...
"Two digital poker platforms have agreed to reimburse players more than €400,000 in losses due to the absence of proper gaming licenses."
TL;DR:
Bwin and PokerStars each have to repay 2 players their losses for 2006-2021, each ~200k€.
Basically this ruling if it will stand in higher courts (pretty sure sites will go the lengthy legal way) will allow everyone Dutch player to get their money back (?) pretty wyld
GPT translate:
Here's the translated text of the article:
**Court Ruling Sets Precedent for Hundreds More Cases**
Online casinos must repay gamblers substantial sums: 'They thought they were untouchable'
**MASCHA DE JONG**
April 17, 2024, FINANCIAL
ZWOLLE - The Overijssel District Court has ordered two international gambling companies to compensate the losses of two Dutch gamblers. They lost several hundred thousand euros while the gambling companies illegally offered games and bets online. This ruling sets a precedent for hundreds of other cases yet to be heard in Dutch courts.
Two online casinos (Bwin and Pokerstars) must repay two gamblers the money they lost.
Gambling provider Bwin was easily accessible to a Dutch gambler from Staphorst during 2018/2019. At the time, the company did not have a license to offer gambling games in the Dutch market, but it did so anyway. The man from Staphorst lost a total of 187,000 euros online. Another man from Almelo gambled away 217,000 euros between 2006 and 2021 at the equally illegal Pokerstars, playing poker and casino games as well as placing sports bets. Both companies have been ordered by the court to repay these substantial amounts.
**Foreign Gambling Sites**
The Dutch government only began issuing licenses for the online gambling market from April 1, 2021. However, the online gambling market was already thriving before then. As early as 2012, the Supreme Court ruled on international gambling companies that illegally offered their products through foreign gambling sites. This did nothing to change the situation. These gambling companies remained easily accessible to Dutch IP addresses.
Lawyer Benzi Loonstein, who represents dozens of victims: "It was a bit like the drug market. It is massive, and among the providers, there often prevails the thought 'we are untouchable.' It is now the first time that actual losses must be reimbursed by the gambling providers."
**Duty of Care Ignored**
The lawyer expects many more lawsuits to follow. "We have been intensively involved in this for a year and a half now. The gambling companies have clearly neglected their duty of care. They are accessible 24/7 to people, while they do not see the damage being done. I represent clients who have gambled away the inheritance from their deceased parents in just a few days, or whose savings account meant for their old age has disappeared. Such stories are very poignant. These are situations that the gambling companies completely ignore."
However, these tragic stories were not decisive for the court. The ruling was kept strictly factual: there was no license for the Dutch market, and thus the agreement with each customer was declared null and void. Loonstein: "And with that, they must compensate what they have taken from those who were enticed to play these online gambling games."
I have been following this a bit, seen a couple of the pokernews articles on it, such as this one:
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024/04/p...
This is interesting to see, obviously they are going to appeal, because it seems like if this stands it will be open season for all losing players to demand refunds. Plus, arguably winning players will have a claim themselves to rake they have paid.
Nobody is responsible for their own actions. Joke world we live in.
If companies that skirt the law are forced into involuntary free rolls, then they'll have a strong incentive to obey the law.
You're referring to large corporations that profit from players who lose, particularly individuals suffering from gambling addiction illnesses/disorders? You might want to revisit the definition of 'illness' to refresh your understanding.
Anyhow..
I wouldnt be really surprised If this does get overturned in higher courts, at least to a certain degree. Let's see.
Decision was only from the first tier of courts.
"In the Netherlands, the district court ("rechtbank") is the first tier in the judicial hierarchy for most civil and criminal cases. Above the district court, there are courts of appeal ("gerechtshoven"), which handle appeals from the district courts. At the top of the hierarchy is the Supreme Court of the Netherlands ("Hoge Raad"), which is the highest court in the land for civil, criminal, and tax cases, primarily focusing on ensuring the uniform application of law and the development of Dutch jurisprudence."
You're referring to large corporations that profit from players who lose, particularly individuals suffering from gambling addiction illnesses/disorders? You might want to revisit the definition of 'illness' to refresh your understanding.
"
Not every losing player is a gambling addict in need of help. Even if that was the case, giving money back to a gambling addict can only result in one thing: he will gamble with it again.
It's not like all of this will ever save someones life and end all the evil in the world.
You're referring to large corporations that profit from players who lose, particularly individuals suffering from gambling addiction illnesses/disorders? You might want to revisit the definition of 'illness' to refresh your understanding.
Anyhow..
I wouldnt be really surprised If this does get overturned in higher courts, at least to a certain degree. Let's see.
Decision was only from the first tier of courts.
"In the Netherlands, the district court ("rechtbank") is the first tier in the judicial
Big companies or not, people are responsible for their own actions.
I assume winning players don't need to give their winnings back?
exactly this.
also, they didnt lose the money to pokerstars but they lost it to other players. Stars was just a platform and its beyond ridiculous to me that they have to pay back a player who kept on depositing and playing poker (most likely against better players) and therefore lost money.
I think people are missing the point here.
The reason this money has been ordered to be refunded isnt a duty of care issue or problem gambling etc. This has been ordered because the companies were not licensed in the country and therefore acting illegally in accepting the deposits.
so you can just freeroll online casinos in the netherlands?
Lol wut
If companies that skirt the law are forced into involuntary free rolls, then they'll have a strong incentive to obey the law.
Agreed
I think people are missing the point here.
The reason this money has been ordered to be refunded isnt a duty of care issue or problem gambling etc. This has been ordered because the companies were not licensed in the country and therefore acting illegally in accepting the deposits.
Yes
the whole licensing system is a joke. GG has way more shady **** than stars (especially towards recs who dont understand anything, like that their graph doesnt show rake paid) but somehow they find GG is safe enough to play and stars is not.
it's all very hypocritical from the dutch government and the claim that they are (mainly) concerned with protecting the gamblers in our country is a complete fallacy
You're referring to large corporations that profit from players who lose, particularly individuals suffering from gambling addiction illnesses/disorders? You might want to revisit the definition of 'illness' to refresh your understanding.
Meh. Seems kinda funny to argue the morals of profiting from people who lose on a poker forum.
Couldn't agree more with ''you're responsible for your own actions'' regardless of what you define an ''illness''.
Google says they legalized this in October 2021so doubt it. Was very curious about that too. Find unlicensed casino and just freeroll.
the whole licensing system is a joke. GG has way more shady **** than stars (especially towards recs who dont understand anything, like that their graph doesnt show rake paid) but somehow they find GG is safe enough to play and stars is not.
it's all very hypocritical from the dutch government and the claim that they are (mainly) concerned with protecting the gamblers in our country is a complete fallacy
They even have casino's owned by the Dutch government self.
What will those gambling addicts do with the money they get back? Tomorrow all drug addicts will sue their dealers. If Pokerstars operated on the Dutch market without a license, they should be fined instead of giving gambling addicts their money back. That is the normal course of events.
I wish I could live in a contry where you can be a total dipshit to lose your money playing slots and then cry about it like a baby and get a refund. ****s sakes what a bunch on muppets that country is.
I wish I could live in a contry where you can be a total dipshit to lose your money playing slots and then cry about it like a baby and get a refund. ****s sakes what a bunch on muppets that country is.
well, im Dutch and i think its bullshit. So does almost everyone else here. But judges arent concerned with that, only with the letter of the law. Lately have seen a lot of weird cases and verdicts that dont sit well with the nation but still go through.
There was one case where a guy borrowed 200k from friends and family, bought a lot of cocaine and went to the state-owned casino, snorted all the coke and blew away all the cash.
He sued Holland Casino for neglecting their duty of care (how you can do something like this as a self-respecting man is beyond me but whatever)
Only reason he didnt get his 200k back is because its happened in a state-owned casino who have a monopoly here
its bizarre and corrupt, nobody agrees with it, but the **** still happens. I dont think Dutch people have become muppets but a lot of the top people are for sure.
My limited experience of Dutch law is that employees are incredibly well protected by the courts, so it wouldn't surprise me if this claim is successful and benefits the "victims" (as opposed to the company receiving a fine).
The Paistings of the world will always find ways to blow their money away, if the country is not ok with that possibility, it should ban any form of legal gambling that is not for peanuts.
No sympathy for the sites though, and the game is doomed anyway so whether they go broke now or in 1-2 years is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
My limited experience of Dutch law is that employees are incredibly well protected by the courts, so it wouldn't surprise me if this claim is successful and benefits the "victims" (as opposed to the company receiving a fine).
The fact that certain laws protect employees well is only a good thing and many other countries can follow an example! And I say that as an employer. As for the case against pokerstars, that's just ridiculous.
