Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?
Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha
IDK. The only instance that I see it written down is Poker News article from May 2023.
"If caught using RTA/GTO software during a hand, player will be subject to penalty up to and including DQ (disqualification) / trespass," WSOP said in a prepared statement. "We reserve the right to further penalize a player for using RTA/GTO in any other situation in our sole and absolute discretion. Players may continue to use their device to play wsop.com or use the Caesars Sportsbook app while in/out of a
From what I can tell, the official written rules dont ban its use at the table, only during a hand. "64c - All participants are prohibited from using betting apps, gaming charts, or any poker information tool while involved in a hand." There was an additional rule that they started announcing at the beginning of tournaments banning its use at the table generally, but a) majority of players arent seated at the very start b) if it came down to legality, Id imagine that the official written ru
They very specifically mention tournament area also. Not just table. I would argue rail is definitely part of the tournament area.
Rail is definitely in the tournament area. And Tamayo was looking at the laptop in the tournament area.
I could see them skirting the rules if Tamayo was only getting verbal info from Dom and McKeehen but he was also looking at the charts.
IMO:
Laptop: this was done in the front row in full view for all to see on national television. This says to me that they knew/thought it was within the letter of the rules even if not within the spirit of the rules. These are smart people who would not be ignorant of the rules, and would not parade cheating around on national television so they could get caught.
Sometimes smart people do dumb mistakes.
Ofc they weren’t malicious trying to hide anything. They just didn’t realize what they did was against the rules. Or maybe they got too excited and forget the rules.
Whatever the reason is, what tomayo did is against the rules and should be punished.
I think it’s fun that there’s and actual discussion about this. It’s on tv, everyone saw. Plus this part of WSOP rules are pretty clear.
Rail is definitely in the tournament area. And Tamayo was looking at the laptop in the tournament area.
It's crazy that poker has reached a point where people need a definition of tournament area to decide whether someone was cheating or not. The dude had access to a laptop with running solvers on it and charts, yet as long as the rail isn't considered tournament area it's fine.
I still want a definition of "tournament area" particularly with Final Tables. Does the tournament area end at the barricades, the same way they usually use the ropes. And then the people watching from outside the ropes or barricades are outside the tournament area. Thats how I would define it intuitively.
I would define tournament area as the entire room that is hosting said tournament. Rail included for the most obvious reasons.
These are smart people who would not be ignorant of the rules, and would not parade cheating around on national television so they could get caught.
Please. Smarter people have been caught in dumber scams. Human nature makes people do stupid **** and as is very evident by reading this thread, it's very likely they convinced themselves that the rail is not part of the tournament area.
Article by LV Review-Journal with new picture I hadn't seen of Tamayo looking at the solver.
Unethical, not illegal: What happened at WSOP Main Event final table?
Waiting for someone to argue that while Tamayo was in the tournament area the laptop was not in the tournament area as it was on the other side of the rail.
Still... "Possibility of being disqualified" is way too vague.
Im not convinced that the rail/spectator area is the tournament area, unless they want to declare that the entire room is part of the tournament area. The point of the barricade is to separate the tournament area from the general public, both at the final table and generally throughout the rooms with the rope barricades. Only players in the tournament plus staff are supposed to be allowed in the tournament area.
But thats why Im saying that it needs to be specifically defined.
Still... "Possibility of being disqualified" is way too vague.
Im not convinced that the rail/spectator area is the tournament area, unless they want to declare that the entire room is part of the tournament area. The point of the barricade is to separate the tournament area from the general public, both at the final table and generally throughout the rooms with the rope barricades. Only players in the tournament plus staff are supposed to be allowed in the tournament area.
But Tamayo was not on the other side of the rail, hence he was still in the tournament area.
Article by LV Review-Journal with new picture I hadn't seen of Tamayo looking at the solver.
Unethical, not illegal: What happened at WSOP Main Event final table?
From the article:
"In this case, technically it was Nitsche using the software, not Tamayo. And that’s where the issue lies."
How the **** is looking at the solver charts not using the software???
Still... "Possibility of being disqualified" is way too vague.
Im not convinced that the rail/spectator area is the tournament area, unless they want to declare that the entire room is part of the tournament area. The point of the barricade is to separate the tournament area from the general public, both at the final table and generally throughout the rooms with the rope barricades. Only players in the tournament plus staff are supposed to be allowed in the tournament area.
So the fact Tamayo had access to solvers and charts is irrelevant because the laptop was not in the tournament area?
unless they want to declare that the entire room is part of the tournament area
They will. The only way to avoid another scenario like this one is by doing exactly that. Shocking they have to.
If ten million is on the line and you aren't willing to do whatever is allowed within the written rules because you think it's against the spirit of the game or whatever then you are just an idiot. Everyone just salty they will never be in a position to do it themselves.
Also lol needing a solver to tell you to raise every button against an amateur heads up with a bb ante lmao.
Will kassoufs strategy was to get everyone so riled up that they started playing worse and technically what he did was not against the rules. I’m sure most people would find this to be quite effective yet no one else bothers to copy his antics even with millions on the line. Why?
I’m sure it would even be +ev to smell like dogshit at the table and pick your nose every 5 minutes, it would certainly put people off their game. Are people idiots for not doing this too?
This is insanity. What if, instead of having a laptop, McKeehen had a bunch of charts printed out on paper and in between hands Tamayo went to the rail and referenced the charts??? That would also be Ok???
Will kassoufs strategy was to get everyone so riled up that they started playing worse and technically what he did was not against the rules. I’m sure most people would find this to be quite effective yet no one else bothers to copy his antics even with millions on the line. Why?
I’m sure it would even be +ev to smell like dogshit at the table and pick your nose every 5 minutes, it would certainly put people off their game. Are people idiots for not doing this too?
Players can be disqualified at the World Series of Poker if they smell bad, based on Rule 40d about personal hygiene.
People tried, WSOP made a rule for it. lol
Still... "Possibility of being disqualified" is way too vague.
Im not convinced that the rail/spectator area is the tournament area, unless they want to declare that the entire room is part of the tournament area. The point of the barricade is to separate the tournament area from the general public, both at the final table and generally throughout the rooms with the rope barricades. Only players in the tournament plus staff are supposed to be allowed in the tournament area.
But thats why Im sa
So vague that thousands of other players understood the rule perfectly. Funny that we didn’t see a single other player engage in this sort of behavior over the entire summer.
From the article:
"In this case, technically it was Nitsche using the software, not Tamayo. And that’s where the issue lies."
How the **** is looking at the solver charts not using the software???
So if Dom was just telling him what solver says would it be ok? Its only bad because he looked at it himself?
I want the WSOP to take measures to make sure this can't happen in the future and that means being specific with their rules, penalties, and terms. As far as I can tell everything regarding all this falls under floor/TD discretion and WSOP obviously made the decision to use discretion and not penalize this or they were completely oblivious despite it being obvious to everyone watching.
What to do going forward is a more productive conversation than "did he cheat" IMO. My personal opinion is not cheating based on the rules as written, but very bad for the game and rules need to change.
So if Dom was just telling him what solver says would it be ok? Its only bad because he looked at it himself?
This should not be Ok now or in the future but I could see them skirting the current rule if he had only been giving Tamayo verbal info. I'm sure the rule will be much more clear next year.
So if Dom was just telling him what solver says would it be ok? Its only bad because he looked at it himself?
I want the WSOP to take measures to make sure this can't happen in the future and that means being specific with their rules, penalties, and terms. As far as I can tell everything regarding all this falls under floor/TD discretion and WSOP obviously made the decision to use discretion and not penalize this or they were completely oblivious despite it being obvious to everyone watching.
Of course not, but it's a completely irrelevant point because we have picture evidence of Tamayo looking at the screen himself.
If anything you're the one arguing that the laptop isn't on the rail and what ever conclusion you draw from that. I'm honestly shocked people are defending this. We are literally watching a guy look at a laptop screen that has charts and solvers running on it and people want to justify this with some random technicality like ''the laptop wasn't in the tournament area''. Well Tamayo was and he still had access to this all.
WSOP obviously made the decision to use discretion and not penalize this or they were completely oblivious despite it being obvious to everyone watching.
They were completely oblivious. Yes it was obvious to everyone watching. Not to them.
Lol Nevada gaming, what are those turkeys going to do regarding the 10m? Assuming its paid out already
Seriously though it doesn’t seem any entity had any power at all if they have been paid
I think they are LE and could arrest them, prosecute them and throw them in prison.
Here is what I found on a lawyers page. I am an amateur making a guess, but it seems to me you'd need to get creative to say their behavior does not meet these criteria.
I doubt they will be prosecuted as casinos want people who cheat them in prison. While poker players think the max penalty for cheating should be you keep their money and get to keep playing but Doug Polk is mean to you.
Also WSOP probably would prefer it just blow over. However, if someone does set the wheels in motion, how are they not guilty of this? Actually asking as, IANAL and could easily be wrong.
The second half is a bit confusing. I think they are encompassing the actual device used to play the game, like the slot machine itself. But not excluding other things, like laptops.
Gaming Device Cheating in Nevada
NRS 456.0751 states that the possession of any device, software or hardware to obtain an advantage at playing a game is prohibited. The law bans individuals from possessing (with the intent to use) any computerized, electronic, electrical, or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered, or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate.
This includes devices that:
Project the outcome of the game
Keep track of cards played or cards prepared in the game
Analyze the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game
Analyze the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game
What Are Gaming Devices?
Cheating with a gaming device is a serious crime in Nevada and carries with it the appropriate, negative consequences. NRS 463.01552 defines a gaming device as any object used remotely or directly in connection with gaming – or any game which affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss.
Some of these gaming devices include:
Slot machines
Mobile gaming
A collection of two or more of the following components:
An assembled electronic circuit that cannot be reasonably demonstrated to have any use other than in a slot machine.
A cabinet with electrical wiring and provisions for mounting a coin, token, or currency acceptor and provisions for mounting a dispenser of coins or anything of value.
An assembled mechanical or electromechanical display unit used intended for use in gambling.
An assembled mechanical or electromechanical unit that cannot be demonstrated to have any use other than in a slot machine
Any object which may be connected to or used with a slot machine to alter the normal criteria of random selection or affect the outcome of a game
A system for the accounting or management of any game in which the result of the wager is determined electronically by using any combination of hardware or software for computers
A control program (i.e., any software, source language, or executable code which affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss as determined pursuant to regulations by the Commission)
Any combination of one of the components (listed above) and any other component with the Commission determines by regulation to be a machine used directly or remotely in connection with gaming or any game which affects the results of a wager by determining wins or loss
Any object that has been determined to be a gaming device pursuant to regulations adopted by the Commission
This should not be Ok now or in the future but I could see them skirting the current rule if he had only been giving Tamayo verbal info. I'm sure the rule will be much more clear next year.
It's a ridiculous question anyways. Of-course it's not ok that somebody is getting live coaching during a tournament. Isn't this against the rules already?
Of course not, but it's a completely irrelevant point because we have picture evidence of Tamayo looking at the screen himself.
If anything you're the one arguing that the laptop isn't on the rail and what ever conclusion you draw from that. I'm honestly shocked people are defending this. We are literally watching a guy look at a laptop screen that has charts and solvers running on it and people want to justify this with some random technicality like ''the laptop wasn't in the tournament area''.
Do we know that the picture was taken during live play between hands? Or was it taken during a break? IDK the answer, but I do think it matters.
It would be nice to know the time stamp from that pic of Tamayo looking at the laptop screen
It's a ridiculous question anyways. Of-course it's not ok that somebody is getting live coaching during a tournament. Isn't this against the rules already?
No and has been pretty standard for years at Final Tables for guys to get advice/coaching from the rail. Its just no rail has been this blatant about using solvers, probably in past there was solver use off site that got relayed to the rail and then to the player.
