Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?
Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha
No and has been pretty standard at Final Tables for guys to get advice/coaching from the rail. Its just no rail has been this blatant about using solvers, probably in past there was solver use off site that got relayed to the rail and then to the player.
This will just muddy the waters but I don't recall live coaching at any final table being ''pretty standard'' tbh. I've seen plenty of people discuss hands that happened an hour ago, sure, but nothing comes close to this.
Do we know that the picture was taken during live play between hands? Or was it taken during a break? IDK the answer, but I do think it matters.
Tamayo checked the laptop immediately after doubling up one hand. It wasn't during a break, it was 100% during live play between hands.
The only question at this point is if NGC gets involved.
I don't know how a complaint gets filed, whether a party with standing needs to file, or NGC can go forward on their own.
2p2 let's keep up the heat on this.
Well at least once Dom was holding laptop but it was extended over the rail while Tamayo was looking at it. Was the laptop in the tournament area when it was held across the barrier. Does the barrier extend vertically does it matter who is holding it and where they are standing? Did Tomayo ever touch it while pointing?
Will kassoufs strategy was to get everyone so riled up that they started playing worse and technically what he did was not against the rules. I’m sure most people would find this to be quite effective yet no one else bothers to copy his antics even with millions on the line. Why?
I’m sure it would even be +ev to smell like dogshit at the table and pick your nose every 5 minutes, it would certainly put people off their game. Are people idiots for not doing this too?
I believe the rules were changed the year after the Kassouf’s antics. Anyone doing now what he did then would be penalized.
I believe the rules were changed the year after the Kassouf’s antics. Anyone doing now what he did then would be penalized.
Yep, new rules like that are usually added to start the next year, same with BULLDOZER.
But in this case the solver rules were announced dozens of times by speaker to 1000's of players before this incident took place. It should be enforced.
They didnt need a solver lol. They were playing HU with Griff not ****ing Linus Loeliger.
Were they using a solver or pre-flop hand charts? And if the former, what good would a solver be for a player when the hand being solved has been completed?
As has been previously mentioned several times, the issue is the data accumulation they had compiled on how his opponent was playing. It ultimately amounted to having a live HUD.
Take him down one spot. Just like a horse race!
the weird bit is if you're a pro with a dedicated coach with a laptop with a solver and checking with them after every hand, you've probably spent a fair amount of time with solvers already and intuitively know general GTO directions.
no one hand review is going to help you that much going forward
possible he gave up more promotional EV and credibility EV than he gained in tournament EV by doing what he did, looking like he lacked any autonomy. but he won $10m so there's that
there's a reason you can't consult coaches after each play in sports like chess* and tennis
*is chess a sport
Tamayo talks: As controversy rages, the WSOP Main Event champ breaks his silence
If he’s raising 83o why were three nerds huddling over the laptop? 82o was a fold?
Tamayo talks: As controversy rages, the WSOP Main Event champ breaks his silence
Who the heck is author Mo Afdhal? He writes: “Solvers and other real-time advice are within the rules of play, but the optics have put rail assistance out of bounds in the court of public opinion.”
Actually no, solvers and RTA are definitely NOT within the rules of play!
If he’s raising 83o why were three nerds huddling over the laptop? 82o was a fold?
Tamayo probably needed the charts to play ok. That qq fold on the final table bubble was awful. ICM wasn't particularly big at that point. He had like 20xbb against a big stack raise. Easy push. Could also 3 bet call or flat. Should probably be shoving fairly light. Just awful scared play.
the weird bit is if you're a pro with a dedicated coach with a laptop with a solver and checking with them after every hand, you've probably spent a fair amount of time with solvers already and intuitively know general GTO directions.t
Tamayo wasn't going to the rail after every hand. He was going there when there was an all in and call. The vast majority of the hands, he was just sat in his seat. And no, he wasn't wearing an earpiece. My source for this is that I actually watched the stream and haven't just got outraged about one screen grab that shows a lighting artefact.
But don't take this as me defending the use of the laptop to produce ranges, run any sims, or aggregate any data. Even if he only looked at the laptop once, or someone gave him one piece of info based on that data, I think it's wrong and should be stamped out next year. Based on the announcements at the start of each tournament, this was already against the rules. The only reason I can think it wasn't clamped down on at the time was that nobody assumed they would be doing what they were doing and assumed, as I did watching the stream, that they were also just watching the stream.
Who the heck is author Mo Afdhal? He writes: “Solvers and other real-time advice are within the rules of play, but the optics have put rail assistance out of bounds in the court of public opinion.”
Actually no, solvers and RTA are definitely NOT within the rules of play!
has the article been editted
i cant find that within it ?except the comments below
Still... "Possibility of being disqualified" is way too vague.
Im not convinced that the rail/spectator area is the tournament area, unless they want to declare that the entire room is part of the tournament area. The point of the barricade is to separate the tournament area from the general public, both at the final table and generally throughout the rooms with the rope barricades. Only players in the tournament plus staff are supposed to be allowed in the tournament area.
But thats why Im sa
Your basic take seems to be that WSOP is at fault here, and that Tamayo and his boys are borderline victims of an unclear policy. I see that you are an MTT live pro, and it is cool to get your perspective on these matters. My suggestion, however, is to be more like Lena and less like these jackals.
The livelihood of nearly all non-SHR pros depends on recreational players enjoying their time at the tables. Most of you have no occupation without the prize pools generated by recs. So show them, and the game itself, some respect. Recreational players understand that they are at a skill and experience disadvantage. They will play WSOP tournaments despite that for the thrill and the chance that lightning strikes and variance takes them on a deep run. So maybe confine your collaboration with other pros to breaks and texts. Maybe don’t watch a pack of other pros consulting each other while staring at a solver…while one of them is heads up against a stone rec, and is standing on the stage of the ****ing Main Event final table…and then publicly debate whether this is a problem at all, and imply that if it is a problem at all, the fault lies not with these scumbags but with the WSOP.
The entire deck is already stacked in the favor of pros. They should be ashamed to be operating in packs and using computer software to gang up on a recreational player. It’s disgusting, and there is a reason this story is resonating so negatively with amateur players. So don’t be like these guys. Be like Lena and act like you’ve been there before and that your talent and skill advantage is enough. The irony, of course, is these anglers really HAVE been there before. And nothing has changed from them.
Were they using a solver or pre-flop hand charts? And if the former, what good would a solver be for a player when the hand being solved has been completed?
They were using both. Not even sure what your question is. They are accumulating data, running it through solvers and giving Tamayo that information. He basically has access to a live hud. Not sure why people fail to see how this is an advantage over everyone else.
Your basic take seems to be that WSOP is at fault here, and that Tamayo and his boys are borderline victims of an unclear policy. I see that you are an MTT live pro, and it is cool to get your perspective on these matters. My suggestion, however, is to be more like Lena and less like these jackals.
The livelihood of nearly all non-SHR pros depends on recreational players enjoying their time at the tables. Most of you have no occupation without the prize pools generated by recs. So show them, and
Could not have said it better myself. I too thought ledn's take in all of this was laughable and it's even stranger that legitimate pros are defending this garbage behavior. There's just no way a rec watches that FT and now thinks to himself ''I'm going to give it a shot too so that when I do make it HU on the FT I can play vs a pro and 3 nerds running solvers on a laptop''.
I'd add that ledn and other defenders of this whole ****-show are also the reason stuff like this continues to happen because as a poker community we don't condemn this behavior. We look for reasons why this was okay.
On the day before the final day, Tamayo spent 3-4 hours studying button vs big blind confrontation with Serock.
Yep, article was ninja edited to get rid of that glaring error lol. Same passage now reads:
“While coaching from the rail is nothing new, the WSOP did put out warnings against the use of "any type of poker solvers", and the optics of having experienced pros working together against a recreational player have been widely criticized in the court of public opinion.”
Your basic take seems to be that WSOP is at fault here, and that Tamayo and his boys are borderline victims of an unclear policy.
They certainly arent victims, their horse won and Dom clearly doesn't care about the public perception. More like anglers who are taking advantage of rules that arent clear, and trying to squeeze every drop of EV. Everyone know anglers are scummy but you cant do anything about it except fix the rule that they are abusing.
Tamayo may be a victim of his friends'/backers' greed though. I think he was in a tough spot and his only option would have been to ignore his rail the entire time, which is easier said than done in an environment like that. You want the support of your friends.
Apparently Dom asked a WSOP official about it and got a OK, but I have no clue if thats true.
Thats why I am saying clarify the rules, and put them in writing. Thats all I'm saying. This was an issue at the 2023 WSOP and they still didn't update their rules for 2024 to account for it. I dont buy that a verbal announcement at the start of a tourney where you can still late reg on Day 2 is sufficient, a fraction of the participants are in the room to hear the announcement and even fewer are actually listening.
If anything I think its good for poker overall that this happened on the biggest stage and now the WSOP is forced to reevaluate the policy and how they enforce it.
And I dont see what Griff being a amateur has to do with it, other than perception. Would there be less outrage if he was HU with Lena because Lena is already a human MTT solver?
They were using both. Not even sure what your question is. They are accumulating data, running it through solvers and giving Tamayo that information.
Since you answered my question, presumably you know full well what my question is. To date, I've seen no direct evidence that Tamayo was using a solver, and was hoping someone could steer me to it, or alternatively explain why so many people such as you are making that accusation without evidence. And the distinctions are clear and well understood by most in this thread: a solver, a HUD, and a set of pre-flop charts are distinct tools.
As for me, I wouldn't be opposed to having all three tools banned from the rail of the ME final table going forward.
Since you answered my question, presumably you know full well what my question is. To date, I've seen no direct evidence that Tamayo was using a solver, and was hoping someone could steer me to it, or alternatively explain why so many people such as you are making that accusation without evidence. And the distinctions are clear and well understood by most in this thread: a solver, a HUD, and a set of pre-flop charts are distinct tools.
As for me, I wouldn't be opposed to having all three tool
Go to Doug Polk's video and at 5:30. That's a picture someone took, I believe that's a solver on the screen. There's other pictures out there of charts on their laptop screen.
