Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?

Exactly.

I have been watching the final table videos. Tamayo made several weak/tight preflop mistakes. Obviously, folding QQ to a single raise. Also, folding 98o to a minraise from the BB, getting 4.5-1 and 3!/folding AQ 3-handed.

So maybe he needed custom generated charts. Maybe they got a dispensation because he had a preflop handicap.

Yep and honestly why would they? This is the poker scene in a nutshell. People will defend them or find excuses and even when the majority agrees, nothing will happen to them.

Do you think they will be banned from the WSOP? They didn't even restore the chips when Men the Master was caught stealing chips. He had been caught for different other crap several times before.

I guess winning the WSOP doesn't get you endorsement contracts any more. If so, Tamayo might not get one. You need to be Negreanu to get one.

There’s an upper bound to the outrage though since Griff was the most victimized and doesn’t seem to care

Think everyone knows folding QQ is a mistake according to chip EV.

But it’s near impossible to call folding QQ there a mistake since it’s based on Tamayo’s utility curve in that specific situation and that’s his and his alone

Id be surprised if they were. With that said while Men the Master is far worse than any of these guys , what they did was done on the big stage. It got what more attention than anything that **** stain has done for the last 30 years so just bc he hasn't been banned doesn't mean they definitely won't be.

The problem is does banning them at this point make WSOP look even worse than it does right now? I'm not sure but "cheated banned after winning the main event" isn't too flattering for them either.

That's fair. I watched his podcast with Doug and he def has his opinions and believes he's been wronged but you're right in the sense that he doesn't seem to care. I guess winning 6m does that to you lol.

Yes there’s the 6M and also I think he sensed he was fortunate to be there with spiking two outer to survive

Next year WSOP will prevent this one way or another

It just doesn’t make any sense for them to make any strong announcement right now as it would make it look like something happened that was very wrong and maybe that creates it’s own problems

And there really isn’t a big outrage making the circles. There’s a few discussions going on online and a few videos here and there.

The problem stems from the desire to livestream the event and show hole cards on a 30 (?) minute delay. Relaying hand information has been going on for years, the gto programs have just caught up with reduced computing times.

I think people seriously overestimate how much can be gained by studying between hands. Sure it's bad optics but if you don't already have a edge it's not gonna give you one. I know some are advocating banning cell phones and laptops but that would be a very effective way of running of the amateur player. Most people today are pretty much addicted to their cell phone

I think banning these guys when the wsop welcomes scumbags like Men the master with open arms makes WSOP look like a joke

Yeah. I am surprised cheating isn't more common than it is, really.

Apart from ethics, why not travel the country for a year marking cards in midstakes games?

You could be caught on video and nothing would happen to you. Maybe you'd be barred at one casino but nothing criminal or civil and you'd be welcomed at every other casino, every tournament and site.

Because you can reliably make more money working a normal job or running any other low effort scam. Many cards were marked at the wsop so people are doing it but it’s probably not worth the effort with how easy other schemes and scams are. These guys can just cheat online with basically no risk or repercussion.

Not only that, but he only even went to the rail a few times, when there was an all in and a call. It's not like he was running there after every hand to get the next hands ranges. I'm not saying it's ok, just adding to the point about minimal gains. It definitely needs to be stamped out for next year.

People underestimate you how you can gain by checking strategies when ICM implications change because of a bustout or new stack distributions.

You mean when it was 3-handed or earlier? There is no ICM effect HU.

I think you have no idea how much can or can’t be gained. Infinitely better players than you have said it’s hard to quantify and Tamayo was making some pre-fold folds that he shouldn’t have. If he gets to look at a chart a few times to remember ranges, yeah I think that helps.

But, you are the pokerscene in a nutshell. Just keep looking for excuses why this is fine.

Please. You have no idea how little or how much can be gained.

This

You do realize good players spend hours upon hours studying theory to get a solid understanding? So the idea that a few minutes between hands is gonna make some huge difference is kinda silly.

This is a flawed analogy since states have set speed limits depending on the road type, so there is a legally set maximum.

For example in Arkansas:

[Quote=Act 784]SECTION 1. Arkansas Code § 27-51-201

The maximum speed limit for a motor vehicle operated on a controlled-access highway is seventy-five miles per hour (75 m.p.h.)[/quote]

As for whether it's ethical or not what they did, that doesn't mean ****. Either it is legal or not per the law or legal or not per WSOP rules. A lot of people, including me, think this shouldn't be allowed and it's pretty easy for the WSOP to ban this, or if they are cool with it, stipulate what is allowed and not with regards to the final table and rail conduct.

Way too vague. I have the possibility of dying today. I have the possibility of winning the lottery tomorrow. Why wouldn't they use absolute language? I have no idea if that means they actually will DQ no matter what or if a warning is actually possible before DQ.

Well, Tamayo said he didn't gain much from it, so there's that.

Then why are they doing it.

Yeah this is the defense you want to go with. The guy accused of cheating saying he didn’t gain “much” from it.

Why do it? The one question none of you can answer.

I think being able to look at a chart a few times when you’re someone who is making preflop mistakes is going to make a difference. Big or not is irrelevant and also hard to quantify.

So I stand by my point. You have no clue how much it helped him and even if you did. What does it matter? He’s gaining information he shouldn’t have access to.

As for the obvious question. If it didn’t help that much. Why do it?

Lol this isn’t a defense