Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?
Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha
I think people seriously overestimate how much can be gained by studying between hands. Sure it's bad optics but if you don't already have a edge it's not gonna give you one. I know some are advocating banning cell phones and laptops but that would be a very effective way of running of the amateur player. Most people today are pretty much addicted to their cell phone
I dont know about tourneys but in the cash games I've played usually it's the grinder types staring at their phones, watching movies etc while the recs are there at least partially to socialize.
A rule limiting cell phone use but not completely banning it would be interesting. Maybe you can't be directly seated at the table but have to back up slightly to use your phone, (can't use phone at all if you still have cards) and if using your phone still by the time the next hand is being dealt then you are dealt out.
If there wasn’t some edge to be had, nitsche and mckeehan wouldn’t have been on the rail and tamayo wouldn’t have gone to consult the laptop. Arguing otherwise seems pretty pointless.
Whether it effected ultimate outcome or not is irrelevant. Running over to the laptop to look at ranges for opening, flatting, raising, 3betting, etc. based on immediately updated current stack sizes is just plain wrong, and clearly against the rules.
Knowing 3!/gii ranges with stack sizes would be really important. 3-way, Tamayo 3-bet/folded AQo 3-way when Griff shoved with AQo. Pretty sure that was an error, and should have been 3-bet/gii or flat call initially.
Whether it effected ultimate outcome or not is irrelevant. Running over to the laptop to look at ranges for opening, flatting, raising, 3betting, etc. based on immediately updated current stack sizes is just plain wrong, and clearly against the rules.
Ok so why didn't someone in power tell them to cut it out? I get **** can slip by when it's few thousand people in the room but when its down to the final table wouldn't the powers that be know every little thing that's happening
Ok so why didn't someone in power tell them to cut it out? I get **** can slip by when it's few thousand people in the room but when its down to the final table wouldn't the powers that be know every little thing that's happening
people in power are often sleeping at wheel.
Happens in all types of jobs, powers that be also supposed to stop people from climbing on roof with a gun in clear site of a protected target
Thus the fact that it happened doesn’t automatically mean they know about it and okayed it
My understanding is people figured out what they were doing by seeing the laptop with the charts on the video. At the time, no one told Griff or Astedt, or they would have objected. The tournament officials likely also didn't know. However, there are problems with the lax attitude towards cheating and angle shooting which contributed to this.
Did he even cheat though. Were his actions against WSOP tourney rules? If He actually broke the rules you're right it doesn't really matter how big of an edge he gained. Like the saying goes rules is rules
The announcement is very clear. Whether this is enforceable I don't know, not a lawyer but I would assume so.
My understanding is people figured out what they were doing by seeing the laptop with the charts on the video. At the time, no one told Griff or Astedt, or they would have objected. The tournament officials likely also didn't know. However, there are problems with the lax attitude towards cheating and angle shooting which contributed to this.
Poker scene in a nutshell. This thread is the perfect example. Rather than agreeing as a community and trying to make sure this never happens again, people are defending this behavior and some don't even believe there's anything wrong with it.
The announcement is very clear. Whether this is enforceable I don't know, not a lawyer but I would assume so.
Poker scene in a nutshell. This thread is the perfect example. Rather than agreeing as a community and trying to make sure this never happens again, people are defending this behavior and some don't even believe there's anything wrong with it.
The 2nd place finisher doesn’t seem to care, and I’m sure they will police it a little more next year
But hey people are always welcome to dig three holes in desert.
The 2nd place finisher doesn’t seem to care, and I’m sure they will police it a little more next year
But hey people are always welcome to dig three holes in desert.
This isn't entirely accurate as he does address it in a podcast he does with Doug but yes, I don't disagree he doesn't seem to care beyond that. I guess winning 6 milly will do that.
The Breakdown Poker podcast had a pretty interesting episode on this on the 26th.
They discuss the issue, what they think should've been done, and what should be done going forward.
Your basic take seems to be that WSOP is at fault here, and that Tamayo and his boys are borderline victims of an unclear policy. I see that you are an MTT live pro, and it is cool to get your perspective on these matters. My suggestion, however, is to be more like Lena and less like these jackals.
The livelihood of nearly all non-SHR pros depends on recreational players enjoying their time at the tables. Most of you have no occupation without the prize pools generated by recs. So show them, and
Well said.
I wonder what the super casual fans were thinking as they watched the eventual world champion scurry over to the rail in between hands. "WTF is this dork doing on his computer?" is probably even worse than them knowing Tamayo maybe kinda sorta cheated.
It's a shame to think what could have been: Lena, the god of online tournament poker, wins the biggest of them all--cool story! Griff, a rec with brains and huge balls, taking down the god of online tournament poker--cool story! Yet here we are.
Gross.
Yeah, Astedt or Griff winning would have made great stories. I thought Griff played better than some of the pros in the final table or two tables. Some of them played scared. Kristen Foxen was chip leader with like 16 left and it would have been a great story if she made the final 5 or so.
Well said.
I wonder what the super casual fans were thinking as they watched the eventual world champion scurry over to the rail in between hands. "WTF is this dork doing on his computer?" is probably even worse than them knowing Tamayo maybe kinda sorta cheated..
They probably didn't think much of it at the time, to be honest. I was watching and just assumed, as with previous years, that they had the stream running. We didn't know about the solver until later when the picture was posted, it wasn't really an issue during the live stream.
They also wouldn't have thought much of it because the players only went to the rails when there was an all in and call. Griff was 'scurrying' just as much as Tamayo was. The casual observer would have just seen them going to stand with their friends and family. If memory serves me correctly, there were maybe 4 all in and calls, which were the only times that either player went to the rails in the 65 hands of heads up play.
None of this is me excusing anything, the solver use is out of order and it needs to be properly outlawed by the WSOP for next year.
They probably didn't think much of it at the time, to be honest. I was watching and just assumed, as with previous years, that they had the stream running. We didn't know about the solver until later when the picture was posted, it wasn't really an issue during the live stream.
Fair . I took some artistic liberties to make a broader point: coaching, technology on the rail at the most prestigious final table in poker destroys the aura and cool factor that hooked people during the boom. Of course, this is a minor problem relative to the cheating/ethics debate. Lena and Griff both have some gunslinger in them. The casual fans can dig that. I'm bemoaning the missed opportunity for some good PR and broader audience appeal, which poker DESPERATELY needs.
All good. I did not interpret your comment as a defense of the solver use.
Casino management only cares about the bottom line. They already got their money from the tournament fees/rake so the payouts are going to be the same no matter who wins. Maybe they will do something about it just for the sake of public image but until it affects profits, pfffft who cares.
