Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?

Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?

Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha

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21 July 2024 at 03:02 AM
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419 Replies

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by parisron k

If a casino overpays you at the cage a couple $100 let's say and they figure it out and call you or track you down next time you come to the casino and ask you to give the money back, they think they overpaid you, you have 2 choices, either tell them no and you will be banned for life and keep the money, or give it back (even if you don't think they overpaid you) and not get banned.

For $10M I am guessing they will say GTFO, lol.

I saw this happen at the RIO once when a guy got overpaid 500 dollars at another Caesars property and he gave it back.

I'm not sure what the actual law is. Like for a few hundred dollars are they just choosing not to sue you for it bc it's not worth it or do they have no legal standing?


Don't think they can sue when they make the mistake. Unless you're referring to the player just deciding not to pay, and yea I'd think it'd be hard to prove criminal intent and it's a few hundred dollars.


by theporkchop k

i think the less skilled crowd needs to calm down with they won because of this or it gave them more of an edge because everything was pretty close to standard heads up and mostly just played itself

Based on the comments here the less skilled crowd already thinks that.


I mean that’s a valid point, from open mucking QQ to opening 83os 2.5x…


by ScotchOnDaRocks k

That would be a pleasant headline but the 10m is seemingly unobtainable

If it were done fraudulently then obv no.


by theporkchop k

i think the less skilled crowd needs to calm down with they won because of this or it gave them more of an edge because everything was pretty close to standard heads up and mostly just played itself

If they weren't getting an edge then why have the laptop at all? Of course it gave them an edge, dont be obtuse. And yeah everything was super standard, I love raising 3 8 off on the button.


by LimpDitka k

If they weren't getting an edge then why have the laptop at all? Of course it gave them an edge, dont be obtuse. And yeah everything was super standard, I love raising 3 8 off on the button.

He should have known to raise ATC anyway with the big ante and position, but might not have.


WSOP should state very clearly that players' rails may not use solvers.

I don't think Tamayo or his team thought they were doing anything wrong and I believe his victory was legit.

I see solvers on the rail as bad for the game for many reasons. It could scare people off if they don't want to study these things and think they have a big disadvantage because of it.

For next year WSOP should ban solvers on the rail.


by VincentVega k

This is why there is an issue. Instead of realizing that there's a problem on the surface from the laptop/constant advice/possible earbud, some are actually considering how they might be innocent.

I'm always the guy who looks out for the defendant in court but poker is a game by yourself and "technology or devices that help your gameplay" (not verbatim I know) is simply not allowed. It sickens me that this kind of behavior is even considered ethical.

Not attacking you Teddy because you're not th

im genuinely unsure about what he is accused of doing.

is the accusation he was getting real time solves relayed via earbuds?

or looking at preflop charts for the next hand

or reviewing the previous hand

people cant even agree on what the accusation is, or explain how it would have changed how he played a hand

optics are awful, granted


by immadesu k

WSOP should state very clearly that players' rails may not use solvers.

I don't think Tamayo or his team thought they were doing anything wrong and I believe his victory was legit.

I see solvers on the rail as bad for the game for many reasons. It could scare people off if they don't want to study these things and think they have a big disadvantage because of it.

For next year WSOP should ban solvers on the rail.

Honestly I dont think Tamayo had much say in it. He was backed, probably fairly heavily >50% Id bet, and his backers wanted to maximize their EV. Really all he could have done was refuse to go to his rail, but also, Joe is his roommate and one of his best friends for a long time.

I think that they assumed that if what they were doing was wrong, WSOP would tell them to stop. They are at the front of the rail for everyone to see. Its not like Dom was hiding in the back with his laptop. When I was watching the stream and saw the laptop, my thought was "oh the rail is running sims, thats smart. WSOP should ban this in the future". I also assumed that since they were doing it so obviously, that if it was against the rules, then WSOP would have done something about it.

WSOP needs to be very clear about its rules and define terms, like what constitutes RTA and what is the "tournament area"


by borg23 k

I saw this happen at the RIO once when a guy got overpaid 500 dollars at another Caesars property and he gave it back.

I'm not sure what the actual law is. Like for a few hundred dollars are they just choosing not to sue you for it bc it's not worth it or do they have no legal standing?

IANAL, but the legality of if the guy has to give the money back is irrelevant. It's a private business, they can ban you for any reason they want. For them, it's probably not worth the lawsuit even if they could since they'd have to show proof of the over-payment and casinos usually prefer to hand over their first born before letting patrons see surveillance video.

FWIW, it does work the other way. If you get underpaid they will try and contact you to make it right. This just happens less often for completely unknown reasons that certainly aren't connected to the stereotype that casino goers are often scum.


by ledn k

Honestly I dont think Tamayo had much say in it. He was backed, probably fairly heavily >50% Id bet, and his backers wanted to maximize their EV. Really all he could have done was refuse to go to his rail, but also, Joe is his roommate and one of his best friends for a long time.

I think that they assumed that if what they were doing was wrong, WSOP would tell them to stop. They are at the front of the rail for everyone to see. Its not like Dom was hiding in the back with his laptop. When

Agree, that is more likely, they thought they would be told to stop if wrong. I saw the laptop and thought they might have been watching the stream for info, didn't think about solvers.

WSOP get clear on rules for next year and move on.


by VincentVega k

Don't think they can sue when they make the mistake. Unless you're referring to the player just deciding not to pay, and yea I'd think it'd be hard to prove criminal intent and it's a few hundred dollars.

No criminal intent needed. Any suit would be a civil action.

Yes they probably can sue you even for their mistake. Just like finders keepers is seldom if ever correct, you can’t claim their error my benefit. I suspect it would fall under unjust enrichment.

If a bank screws up and deposits your paycheck into my account, do you believe I would be allowed to retain those funds? Not only would those funds be demanded back, but the bank would unilaterally pull those funds from any of my accounts with them. Even if this put my balance negative.


Nevrrmind ban solvers. They need to ban elec y sonic devices on the rail and communication with the rail.


by teddybloat k

im genuinely unsure about what he is accused of doing.

is the accusation he was getting real time solves relayed via earbuds?

or looking at preflop charts for the next hand

or reviewing the previous hand

people cant even agree on what the accusation is, or explain how it would have changed how he played a hand

optics are awful, granted

You can’t have help from eletronic device during game play.

When he goes to rail and see the computer screen, he does get help from eletronic device.

That’s not allowed.

Idk if he gains an edge. But what he did is against rules.

You won’t have an edge if you use cocaine before a basketball game. But it’s against the rules


by teddybloat k

im genuinely unsure about what he is accused of doing.

is the accusation he was getting real time solves relayed via earbuds?

or looking at preflop charts for the next hand

or reviewing the previous hand

people cant even agree on what the accusation is, or explain how it would have changed how he played a hand

optics are awful, granted

So people have literally said that every single one of those things is wrong. Many things can be wrong at the same time. The fact that one of them is wrong does not preclude the others from also being wrong. So yes, they would all be wrong, and that fact that they would all be wrong in no way is the same thing as people not being able to agree on what the accusation is. There is widespread agreement in this thread that all of these things (not accusations) are wrong.


by ledn k

WSOP needs to be very clear about its rules and define terms, like what constitutes RTA and what is the "tournament area"

It's a bit strange because once people started sharing the announcement I really didn't think any of this needed to be cleared up or define what is ''the tournament area''. The announcement very clearly says not to use solvers, Tamayo, whilst playing a tournament, has a bunch of guys using a solver for him and he gets that information. I fail to see how this isn't against the specific rules announced before every single event started. Unless the argument is, someone else was doing it for him so it's fine?

by teddybloat k

im genuinely unsure about what he is accused of doing.

is the accusation he was getting real time solves relayed via earbuds?

or looking at preflop charts for the next hand

or reviewing the previous hand

people cant even agree on what the accusation is, or explain how it would have changed how he played a hand

optics are awful, granted

I'd say 2/3 are pretty bad and I don't think anyone accuses him of reviewing previous hands as that has been common practice since forever and used to be done based on the stream which I believe is delayed by an hour? Not saying the latter is ''fine'', but don't think that's the accusation here.


by deuceblocker k

Nevrrmind ban solvers. They need to ban elec y sonic devices on the rail and communication with the rail.

This is what we'll see next year I think.

Banned electronic devices room-wide(rail included) and possibly no more communication with the rail.


IMO:
Laptop: this was done in the front row in full view for all to see on national television. This says to me that they knew/thought it was within the letter of the rules even if not within the spirit of the rules. These are smart people who would not be ignorant of the rules, and would not parade cheating around on national television so they could get caught.

Earpiece/Airpod: if the guy really had this in his ear, that's hidden, obviously blatant cheating by any standard, and there should be a no-holds-barred comeuppance from every organization, regulatory agency, and law enforcement agency with jurisdiction. (And some old-school stuff.)

Regarding proving the earpiece, it will be tough with the evidence I've seen. That white spot on his earlobe under the hood is the same color as the white spot on his nose from the lights. I'm not saying I believe they are innocent, but I am saying that we would need better proof. That proof could surface.


If ten million is on the line and you aren't willing to do whatever is allowed within the written rules because you think it's against the spirit of the game or whatever then you are just an idiot. Everyone just salty they will never be in a position to do it themselves.

Also lol needing a solver to tell you to raise every button against an amateur heads up with a bb ante lmao.


by JB-nasty k

If ten million is on the line and you aren't willing to do whatever is allowed within the written rules because you think it's against the spirit of the game or whatever then you are just an idiot. Everyone just salty they will never be in a position to do it themselves.

Also lol needing a solver to tell you to raise every button against an amateur heads up with a bb ante lmao.

Username checks out


by Betraisefold22 k

It's a bit strange because once people started sharing the announcement I really didn't think any of this needed to be cleared up or define what is ''the tournament area''. The announcement very clearly says not to use solvers, Tamayo, whilst playing a tournament, has a bunch of guys using a solver for him and he gets that information. I fail to see how this isn't against the specific rules announced before every single event started. Unless the argument is, someone else was doing it for him so

From what I can tell, the official written rules dont ban its use at the table, only during a hand. "64c - All participants are prohibited from using betting apps, gaming charts, or any poker information tool while involved in a hand." There was an additional rule that they started announcing at the beginning of tournaments banning its use at the table generally, but a) majority of players arent seated at the very start b) if it came down to legality, Id imagine that the official written rules from the start of the series would take priority over a rule that they added a couple of weeks into it.

It also has a glossary of poker terms to define them at the end of the rules, and it doesn't define RTA, solver, sim, tournament area, or anything relevant to the situation.


by ledn k

From what I can tell, the official written rules dont ban its use at the table, only during a hand. "64c - All participants are prohibited from using betting apps, gaming charts, or any poker information tool while involved in a hand." There was an additional rule that they started announcing at the beginning of tournaments banning its use at the table generally, but a) majority of players arent seated at the very start b) if it came down to legality, Id imagine that the official written ru

An "announced" rule that does not conflict, but instead adds to an existing written rule can (and should) be enforced.

For those not at their table when the tournament starts and the additional rule was announced, too bad. TDs made reasonable accommodation to inform players of the rule. That should be more than sufficient for enforcement.


by ledn k

There was an additional rule that they started announcing at the beginning of tournaments banning its use at the table generally, but a) majority of players arent seated at the very start

Didn't it also include the tournament area?


by Defarse k

Didn't it also include the tournament area?

IDK. The only instance that I see it written down is Poker News article from May 2023.

"If caught using RTA/GTO software during a hand, player will be subject to penalty up to and including DQ (disqualification) / trespass," WSOP said in a prepared statement. "We reserve the right to further penalize a player for using RTA/GTO in any other situation in our sole and absolute discretion. Players may continue to use their device to play wsop.com or use the Caesars Sportsbook app while in/out of a hand."

"Any other situation in our sole and absolute discretion" is about as vague as you can get. Its crystal clear about use during the hand but very vague otherwise.

But thats also from 2023. The 2024 Rules do not have any language of this kind. All I found was Rule 64 addressing it at all and a ctrl-F of the document for terms like GTO, RTA, solver, etc come up empty.

I still want a definition of "tournament area" particularly with Final Tables. Does the tournament area end at the barricades, the same way they usually use the ropes. And then the people watching from outside the ropes or barricades are outside the tournament area. Thats how I would define it intuitively.

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