GGPoker killing the HS poker dream?
Recently it has come out that they are planning on making VIP games (5k+) invite only taking a path which many feared co
One step closer to a monopoly.
One step closer to a monopoly.
this is from 3 months ago
I was pondering this situation for a while, and I now believe this move won't hurt GG one single bit. The guys and girls saying how bad it is to remove the dream of highstakes don't seem to realize how much you all are projecting, as if this is what the majority of people playing really want, on a realistic level.
A south american, an eastern european from one of those poorer countries, asians and etc, can do pretty ok playing 100nl, 50nl and even 25nl depending on how much volume they play and how good (for those limits) they are. They don't need to go much higher than midstakes, if they do at all. Many players I believe most of you will agree are talented, like ishter, didn't even want to subject themselves to the swings of the highstakes.
Is this move bad for people who view poker on a competition, sports level? Who dream big? Who are nostalgic of the good old days? Absolutely. But as long as there are young and hungry (I'm being literal here) guys from poorer countries, and a few guys from richer countries, willing to put loads of volume on lower stakes to get sure, consistent income, GG will do just fine.
Not forgetting GG being the only real option to play online poker in a few places.
A south american, an eastern european from one of those poorer countries, asians and etc, can do pretty ok playing 100nl, 50nl and even 25nl depending on how much volume they play and how good (for those limits) they are. They don't need to go much higher than midstakes,
You are right. But, I don't think playing 200NL for the rest of your life is a good idea.
If you beat 200NL zoom, there is probably one 1000NL setup that you could win on the long run. You just need to game select and the variance will decrease. Sometimes i see fish playing NL40k on GG, so i guess there is fish playing 1kNL too. Maybe the volume will decrease, but the amount of money you will make will be greater than the one playing 200NL.
If you play 100/200NL for life time, you are waisting time (even if you live in a poor country). It's better to use your money for something else if you are not going take the next step.
I see that achieving the high stakes dream is the equivalent of winning a Champions League or NBA title. Basketball and football wouldn't be so cool and attract so many people if there wasn't the "champions league dream" or the "NBA dream".
Poker was the ultimate sport because anyone could go there and make that dream happen, there was no such thing as "being drafted". You just need the money and that's it.
It’s of course typical communist rhetoric. Anyone pursuing their dreams and ambitions highlights their own impotence.
They cheer and celebrate when nobody is allowed to win.
lmao@ communist rhetoric.
I don't begrudge anyone anyone for being good and winning. I begrudge regs/pros who are toxic for the games which unfortunately is way too many of them.
I've played with plenty of people I know 1)are better than me 2)are fun/pleasant to play with.
I have no issues with any of them. Good for them.
But the people who cry the loudest about private games are the ones who cause games to go private in the first place.
There's nothing wrong with pursing your dreams. But if you want to call yourself a PROFESSIONAL then act PROFESSIONAL and treat your customers well. Somehow this eludes them. Poker players aren't salaried athletes. They're playing a game for money and need customers like any other small business.
The players collectively have done way more damage to online poker than the sites ever have. But bc I play also i'm just supposed to bury my head in the sand and pretend that's not the case? Nope. I state the facts.
When you talk about "pursing their dreams" not only do they ignore the fact that you need people to beat in the first place who don't have to play poker at all, but they also need the poker sites/poker rooms as well. These places are running a business not a printing press for you. I mean yea it would be nice if some giga rich dude decided to start a site with 1 dollar rake and spent tons and tons of money acquiring awful players for years on end we could all get fat off of but that's not realistic.
The ONLY thing the sites care about is their own bottom line and if they're smart they care about it in the long term. That's what matters to them. Not that some nerd can't chase the poker dream from his mom's basement. If you want them to change something or do something, act like an adult and appeal to their bottom line not some high stake dream.
I think the issue is that you describe a caricature of pro that we all dislike and generalise based on that.
I also dislike tanking miserable nits that sit out the moment the rec busts and I call out such behaviour.
Obviously people play for different reasons and it’s fine if people want to have a private game that’s not too serious.
But there are also players both pro’s and recs that are passionate about poker and the thrill of playing very high level poker. Those games are made impossible by GG policies and that is sad.
Btw, I remember chatting with you like a decade ago? We chatted about physics math husngs. You seem so angry nowadays, weird to see.
I think the issue is that you describe a caricature of pro that we all dislike and generalise based on that.
I also dislike tanking miserable nits that sit out the moment the rec busts and I call out such behaviour.
Obviously people play for different reasons and it’s fine if people want to have a private game that’s not too serious.
But there are also players both pro’s and recs that are passionate about poker and the thrill of playing very high level poker. Those games are made
You have me confused with someone else.
I've never even played husngs let alone chatted about that.
Believe me I wish it was a caricature. there are way to many exactly like this.
I've seen it on here for a long time and seen it in person at the table. People who play poker for a living who thinks everyone plays poker for the same reasons that they do when they dont.
Look I don't understand the appeal of -ev pit games . They've never appealed to me an never will. But lots of people like them and play them all the time. If I was running a casino it would be stupid of me to say "well they don't appeal to me at all" and not try to understand why people play them to go give them a good experience. Poker is just another -ev pit game for a lot of players. And yet so many poker pros say "well i take poker seriously why would this person play if they weren't going to also take it seriously and play no matter what?" It's ridiculous. While they're great with math and studying solver outputs they're incapable of looking at things through the lens of a rec player. And it leads to toxic behavior both live and online.
Online poker in 2024 is an absolute cesspool.
The apps are even worse.
And obviously there is a lot more cheating in private games than there is in public games, rake is a lot higher etc.
and still despite those things a lot of recs would still prefer to play in the games they are more likely to be cheated in and pay much higher price in process.
Let that sink it.
playing in public online/live games is so miserable for them they would rather be cheated!
That's how brutal way too many pros are to play it. It's not a caricature I made up. That's the cold honest truth.
That's not be being a communist or me being against people trying to make money in poker. it's me stating the reality for a lot of recs.
i remember a distinct quote from the Bloomberg article recently:
'The Russians could see that about 80% of amateur players got sick of losing money and never made it to 1,000 hands'
It's no secret that the scene is eating itself. Any reg that doesn't live under a rock will hear things from fish at the live table "Online is too hard", "online is rigged", "online is (whatever)". I lost count years ago of how many players I've met that love poker, but have sworn offline.
It's not like this kind of change GG has implemented doesn't exist elsewhere either. The 10/20/40 pool at Bellagio is chock full of players deemed too good, too dislikeable or just too boring to be allowed to play the 100/100. LA has spent years being a political nightmare to sift through for anyone who's read a hand-ranking chart. In the UK, it's a proud marketing tool for private games to announce "no pros. no staked players." in their Telegrams.
It's not like we play a sport online. At low/mid/high stakes, there's hardly any reg-battling going on.
reg open sits -> gets pushed off by a stronger reg -> fish joins -> table fills -> fish leaves -> snap sit outs and table dies
For years, recs have been casting their ballot, moving their money away from traditional poker sites and venues to private games, on- and off-line. This has been happening at every stake level. The general move, from cash games to tournaments, is another example of recs hoping to "level the playing field" a bit more in their favour. They're tired of being crushed by professionals.
Once the delusion factor wears off, and the rec realises they aren't winning (generally after a reasonable sum of money has changed hands into the regs), they don't want to play there anymore. They take their business elsewhere.
If this is how they think they can bring back these whales, and they've decided removing the regs doesn't make it unviable, there's not much that one can do.
Goodwill isn't a thing in online poker. If it fails for them, and they revert to the old system, the 20KNL table will be full the second a whale appears again.
It’s of course typical communist rhetoric. Anyone pursuing their dreams and ambitions highlights their own impotence. They cheer and celebrate when nobody is allowed to win.
You are of course allowed to win in online poker. In every reg-battle, there will be a winner. If it were about sport, there would be tables on top of tables running at the nosebleeds.
But there isn't. There's one table that's only running because there's a not-Realnamed account that isn't topping up. He will bust, the table will die, and the cycle will repeat. Sharks and fish, all it's ever been.
Edit: Do I think these changes are a good thing? No of course not.
Am I surprised this has happened? Not at all, for the reasons laid out above. Think it was coming eventually.
Do I think the poker dream is dead now? Absolutely not. There are tons of opportunities still out there. Maybe you have to relocate, but it's out there. Those who figure it out will be rewarded over the ones that don't.
Sucks we can't rail the big games anymore, but would we even want to? It's not like livestreams put up massive numbers with all-fish lineups, there's no appetite from the enthusiasts.
I don’t think you have any authority to speak for most recs.
I’m a rec and am highly competitive. I have a family, career, and business that take priority. But I also have a drive to test myself and prove what I know I’m capable of at a poker table.
I don’t play HS because of my other responsibilities in life and the knowledge that variance is a real thing so even if I believe I’m good enough to compete at that level, I can still lose it all.
I would absolutely love an opportunity to play against t
Pretty sure you just mostly agreed with what I said? You have no desire to become a professional poker player right ?
I can speak for most recs in that applies to them as well. Certainly those over the age of 30 (either literally or in maturity/world outlook) the assumption from regs that all poker players wish they could pursue the poker dream and myopic and egotistical
I’m competitive as hell. On the golf course. If you are too …it doesn’t make sense that you would like to risk loads of money to play people who have studied and played much more than you. You even admit as much …and say you want it to be “a free roll” lol …that’s not how poker works
“The kid with a dream” aka pro poker players and wannabes are an absolute c**er on the quality of online games . YES YOU ARE BETTER AT A CARD GAME THAN US RECS. Congrats. Massive achievement. After all that work and study . You did it. You can now look down on those trying to have fun gambling and call them “donks and fish”
Truth is though …. Just about anyone with half a brain can get good at poker. They don’t bother though. See if you can work out why
I think the issue is that you describe a caricature of pro that we all dislike and generalise based on that.
I also dislike tanking miserable nits that sit out the moment the rec busts and I call out such behaviour.
Obviously people play for different reasons and it’s fine if people want to have a private game that’s not too serious.
But there are also players both pro’s and recs that are passionate about poker and the thrill of playing very high level poker. Those games are made
I wont pretend i have any idea what the high stakes pool on gg looks like but with your expirience in Husng and what happened to them I am surprised you are so sure that this player pool if not using rta.
I mean when we look at husng it went from one of the most profitable games to be playing to entirely dead over the course of a few years.
I am very confident at some point 80% of regs playing 50s or higher were using unfair tools.
Why do you think this isnt the case for this pool of players?
Crimsonchin you play less solved games like shortdeck and plo5 over the popular games. Do you really think there is that little cheating because you seem to avoid the games with the most advanced solvers and rta. I always assumed this was by design because my view is a little bit more pessimistic then yours. but of course this is dogshit
I wont pretend i have any idea what the high stakes pool on gg looks like but with your expirience in Husng and what happened to them I am surprised you are so sure that this player pool if not using rta.
I mean when we look at husng it went from one of the most profitable games to be playing to entirely dead over the course of a few years.
I am very confident at some point 80% of regs playing 50s or higher were using unfair tools.
Why do you think this isnt the case for this pool of players?
Sure reasonable question.
When I got back into poker last year I was also pleasantly surprised to find out the HS games were very clean. Cheating is a bigger deal at midstakes.
RTA in plo5 is clearly not a factor as everyone including at the top plays fairly poor and unbalanced.
Collusion is a possibility and happens a lot on shady apps. I have played in such a game once and it will show from suspicious showdowns.
The pool at HS is quite small and all names are familiar to everyone. To collude effectively you would have to be quite skilled which means you have a lot to lose. Caught once you’ll be excluded for life from most games.
Most regs are friends with each other and extremely observant/analytical/aware of the possibility. Additionally there are security teams on sites/serious apps, so I don’t think it’s possible collusion could take place without any evidence or suspicion arising over time. All regs that I’ve talked to in these games share that opinion.
How do I know that the same is true for nlhe/plo4?
For starters the regs from those games as far as I’ve heard share the exact same observation. Additionally, understanding poker at a high level you can see that RTA in the current environment is not even that useful. You have to beat a high rake trashold which rta alone will not do. You need to understand poker at a high enough level to exploit well. If you understand poker at that level then GTO is not that difficult and so gains would be limited but the downside is the risk of lifelong excommunication.
Additionally I observe the play a lot of high stakes players at nlhe/plo4 and you can clearly see distinct styles of each players, that are full of typical human errors or even blunders and full of pretty far out of range exploits. I always love seeing Linus hh’s because he has such a distinct style. You could say the same for Daniil or seallama and you can observe that certain players do very well vs specific players and vice versa.
I’m not saying it never happens. Everybody is very careful and aware of the risk. But the idea that these games are full of cheaters and that the best players have integrated rta in their games is complete nonsense. Foul play is rare and it’s largely honest competition at the top.
Pretty sure you just mostly agreed with what I said? You have no desire to become a professional poker player right ?
I can speak for most recs in that applies to them as well. Certainly those over the age of 30 (either literally or in maturity/world outlook) the assumption from regs that all poker players wish they could pursue the poker dream and myopic and egotistical
I’m competitive as hell. On the golf course. If you are too …it doesn’t make sense that you would like to risk loads of money
Again these are all caricatures and generalisations.
I don’t feel better than anyone because I’m good at a card game. In fact I feel a little bit like a loser that I’m using skills that could be used to build and innovate useful things for society for gambling… but here we are.
I’ve seen the type that you describe but I don’t know anyone personally like that. All regs I know are humble people that have a genuine passion and competitive spirit for the game. Try to do some charity outside of poker and pay their taxes.
We all frown on the narcissist that think they are better people than recs because of a card game.
Be careful with generalisations.
Again these are all caricatures and generalisations.
I don’t feel better than anyone because I’m good at a card game. In fact I feel a little bit like a loser that I’m using skills that could be used to build and innovate useful things for society for gambling… but here we are.
I’ve seen the type that you describe but I don’t know anyone personally like that.
this is 2002 Chappelle level funny.
Regs like this do exist but they're in the minority.
Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp, that - in general - your so called online nerd can have different profile than people that spend their life in casinos?
What are you talking about?
I'm saying that the way he described live regs/pros is nonsense in the majority of cases.
Is that so hard to grasp?
I’m not sure how people are supposed to follow the logic that all player pools are infested with cheating, but somehow magically this doesn’t infect the highest, most lucrative stakes to cheat at. I also don’t buy that someone cheating would be excommunicated for life or that there’s some inherent risk/reward ratio that negates the possibility of cheating. Both of these statements seem unlikely and hard to swallow.
Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp, that - in general - your so called online nerd can have different profile than people that spend their life in casinos?
The live pros borg is speaking on are not “people that spend their life in a casino”, in the sense that if it weren’t for poker these people would never have stepped into a brick and mortar casino. Online nerds engage is nefarious activity all the time. Cybercrime and cheating in online games are both ****ing huge. Maybe GG isn’t even doing this because of cheating. As far as I see they haven’t given an actual reason and people are throwing fits.
