GGPoker, Elky and Fedor: HS Regs' Perspective
After the events of the last few weeks, I wanted to write a post detailing what has happened with GG from the perspective of the HS community.
I personally haven't been playing much poker in the last year, but as a moderator in the HS group have a good oversight of the situation.
For anyone unaware, on November the 8th GG Poker:
- Removed VIP games
- Added Exclusive games where a host gives access
- Added 2knl with an exact copy of 1knl rake, 8bb/100 at the tables
Background to our relationship with GG:
- March 2023 - GG doubles rake at VIP tables overnight with no announcement. Regs realise through TOCs, and organise a mass boycott of the games.
- April 2023 - Elky acting as a rep for GG helps to present the data we provide on why this rake structure change will hurt their bottom line. We close the boycott with just a small rake increase, reduced rake 2-3 handed, and the promises to work more closely together in future
- April 2023 - Early 2024 - We provide a lot of data to GG poker about rake and action from other sites, mainly with the aim of reducing 2-3 handed rake so pros can battle each other, start tables, as they do elsewhere. Elky seems receptive and on board, but GG themselves don't believe that pros will play pros at any rake structure, despite the overwhelming evidence from ACR.
- In the same period, GG agree to give us more input to security, and some long term consensus cheating accounts disappear. Elky goes as far to say he will instantly freeze accounts for investigation, if the HS group mods are 90% sure they are cheating,. We take this bar very seriously, collecting evidence on many accounts, but only use it on two occasions.
- January 2024 - GG Changes their game integrity format, with Fedor as the new game integrity advisor
- Feb 2024 - myself and the PLO rep meet with Fedor on call, and discuss the issues we think are most important. I felt it was a very useful call, he communicated GGs standpoint on various issues, made it seem easier to understand, and also seemed open some ideas we had.
- Feb 2024 to present - Fedor and Elky respond with delays in the chat, but generally I'd say the relationship was good, things didn't get any worse on GG poker. Since then we only reported 2 accounts cheating, both were investigated at least, albeit with a long delay. The second account, Dennis Vetter, was still cheating and playing up to the last day of the VIP games, albeit only reported a week or so before. In the latter months Elky was kind of AFK, we heard he had some sickness so thought it could be that.
So in general, although things were not ideal obviously with high rake, low WR - GG poker seemed to be making an effort with GI and at least there was a line between players and the business.
I would also note that personally I endeavoured to only suggest ideas that would both be beneficial for the regs, and the business (lower rake HU and 3handed the most obvious example), hoping that this would keep some mutual respect rather than spamming with pie in the sky thinking.
My general feeling from these interactions was that:
- GG is profit maximising, but a smart company in general
- Elky was genuinely trying to make an effort to protect player interests. Fedor harder to get a read on, on occasions felt like he wasn't properly reading our messages fully and didn't really think we understood the landscape or situation. EG I provided a report with 4 GTOwiz hits for the same player, and noted that there were infinite more (it was every hand) but I would avoid spamming as they have already been emailed to support, and he responded a month later with a message about how GTOwiz hits can't be used as evidence and this case doesn't look particularly obvious.
For me personally this was a bit frustrating as I was filtering hard which reports from the HS community I thought merited being pushed to this level.
This brings us to early November:
Rumours start to abound that GG are making HS games private. We ask Elky for information, he says on 07/11:
Less than 24 hours later, he is in the middle of a marathon 10 hour session with a table full of recs in these new exclusive games.
Meanwhile, I message Fedor privately to ask what's going on. He says Elky will have to answer, and he has no insight to that part of the company, but he's not planning to play the games.
I message Elky saying I will publish something but can wait for his comment, and he says he'll have something by end of the day - but sends nothing.
Fedor then starts to grind the games too, pming to say he'll probably be playing here and there after all.
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My conclusions from this period are as follows:
GG
GG is a business, it cares about it's bottom line.
It didn't believe HS games were profitable after transaction costs, game integrity, so decided to privatise them with hosts, and raise the rake. I mostly believe the that they didn't much profit from these games. Recreationals have very high PVIs and acquisition costs,
I think over time regs will be allowed back in to increase the liquidity, obviously paying higher rake, likely giving some % of their action the game runners.
What seems clear though is that GG doesn't care about poker as competition/meritocracy or the HS dream.
Despite overwhelming evidence, they maintain that regs won't play regs no matter the rake.
The profitable variants that remain on GG website are largely only profitable through promotions. At 1knl a huge % of regs w/r comes from promotions (leaderboard, envelopes) that GG can pull at any point.
And from the leaks from PokerOK CEO/ other sources privy to their plans, it seems they aren't really concerned about it being possible to win in the long run. If they haven't come for your format now, they will in future.
There is nothing morally wrong with businesses pursuing maximum profit imo, and maybe they should be expected to. In GGs pursuit of growth, they actually resurrected HS poker too, probably benefitting most 500nl+ players to this point.
But if you are a poker player representing the business, with the information I have it seems you have to concede that you care more about the business than the other players or poker as a competitive game, which brings me to;
Elky and Fedor
Their brand is attached to GG. Until this recent period I genuinely would say I believe they were just realistic people who cared about the players interests, but understood they were operating within a business framework and radical change is unrealistic.
This last period though has made me question this assumption to say the least, and unless any further information comes to light, it seems reasonable to say they care more about their bottom line than the game itself.
This is also fine, it's not in my personal taste, especially if already extremely wealthy, but people through the whole of history have prioritised their own financial situation over 'moral' interests. It can also be debated if 'protecting the ability to win at poker HS' is a moral interest, but for me it's the thing that drew me to the game. No politics, just strategy, and the ability to test your strategy vs whomever you'd like.
It doesn't make them evil or bad, but silence on this particularly in Elkys case does mean they can't claim to be champions of the game in my opinion, and this should be acknowledged.
What can we do
Publicly support sites and ambassadors that do seem to have interest in maintaining the game, and the opportunity to play highstakes.
Right now this is:
- ACR, whose reps have been very responsive to feedback from the HS community in general, albeit maybe lacking the business competence of GG
- CoinPoker, with new ownership, Pads, big interesting promos coming
- WPTpoker, with HS games and competent GI as far as I can tell, and an interest in engaging with the players
Research rake and please think before you aimlessly play these new games GG offer. and vindicate their decision making. I counted 80 entries into 2k yesterday with 4 profitable seats.
Honestly though, when one site has the monopoly and seems to be trying to push it, it's almost every other platform.
For anyone reading from these or other sites, we have a discord with all the HS players in which we coordinated to try and make GI easier, streamline investigations and reports, feel free to reach out.
Any reasonable questions I'll do my best to answer in the thread.
Zero sum games tend towards conflict.
Positive sum games tend towards cooperation.
What about negative sum games
**** HS Pros!
You’re all quick to criticize GG, Elky, and others for focusing on their bottom line, but let’s be real: the reason these threads keep popping up is because you HS pros only care about your bottom line too. Now that you can’t milk the whales freely, you're suddenly concerned about the state of the game.
If you really cared about the “poker dream,” you’d have stepped up by now to defend the micro, small, and mid-stakes players; those whose voices are often unheard and ignored. These players look up to you, hoping that one day they’ll be able to reach the same position as you. But for most, that’s impossible; not because they lack the skills but because of the hostile, exploitative environment.
At the end of the day, you’re all complicit in killing the online poker ecosystem and the poker dream.
**** HS pros!
I'm not sure I'd say HS regs are complicit, that seems like a reach, none of us has ever had any say in how the sites handle the ecology or the rake or whatever, they just do whatever the **** they want... and that's that, we just play where we think we can show a profit and that's about it
except for streamers I guess which is another conversation
**** HS Pros!
You’re all quick to criticize GG, Elky, and others for focusing on their bottom line, but let’s be real: the reason these threads keep popping up is because you HS pros only care about your bottom line too. Now that you can’t milk the whales freely, you're suddenly concerned about the state of the game.
If you really cared about the “poker dream,” you’d have stepped up by now to defend the micro, small, and mid-stakes players; those whose voices are often unheard and ignored. These p
"How dare the people playing for crazy high stakes care about how much money they make" you sound like a complete r3tard dude. HS regs dont control the rake on a site. On GG theyve been battling super high rake the whole time and now theyre banned from even playing in the games. blaming the HS regs is like blaming a rape victim for being raped.
I was going through some nosebleed PLO hands last year of omaha4rollz, alike etc. 4420 hands of PLO for O4R between stakes 25/50-200/400(ante), he paid $212993,04 in rake. So around $48 per hand. And that's all hands, even the ones he folded pre.
Wasn't crypto this magical new fintech that allows ppl to easily exchange currency with low fees and no middlemen (banks that wouldn't necessarily process gambling transactions).
How do you not turn profit from raking every single player almost $50/hand a
Can these numbers be right? Had no idea online high stakes had such high rake... seems more like rake from a high stake NYC homegame or something.
You'd think long time pros like Elky and Fedor would have enough money where they would pass up the opportunity to backstab other professional poker players and win what? potentially 100k?
So either they're scums or are they brokies? My guess is both.
Seems a lot of people posting about how Elky and Fedor backstabbed the pro's. Maybe I don't have all the info but that seems a bit much.
The way I understand stand it they are like ambassadors. Isn't it possible that this decision was made by GG alone? Or was there some kind of proof that they were the ones pushing for GG to implement the changes? If GG were the ones who made the decision would you really expect them to quit in protest or something? Would most pro's do that? I personally don't think so.
I get they weren't very responsive lately , which kind of sucks and is shitty. Some suggested they lied because they said they didn't about any changed coming when they did indeed know. Also kind of shitty, but maybe they were told by GG to keep quiet on it until a public announcement is made which would be perfectly normal.
It also looks bad that they are playing more now with the "whale only " games. That could have been part of the plan and they were told by GG to play more to try to keep the games running after the change. Obviously playing in those games should be profitable for them as well. Just seems like it would make sense GG would push them to play more after the change,
Is there anything else I'm missing that would be the reason players feel so betrayed?
I'm not sure I'd say HS regs are complicit, that seems like a reach, none of us has ever had any say in how the sites handle the ecology or the rake or whatever, they just do whatever the **** they want... and that's that, we just play where we think we can show a profit and that's about it
except for streamers I guess which is another conversation
I'm not pointing my finger at any one person but at the community itself; community composed of influencers and voices that could reach the public space/media and people in power who could actually push things in the right direction.
The HS community only seems to come together when it’s in its own self-interest, not when it’s about those coming up, the ones who try to follow in your footsteps, with the same dreams you once had and maybe managed to make true; the poker community as a whole. These people don’t realize they’ll be crushed, not by competition, but by the environment itself.
Maybe I’ve exaggerated some of my points, not to offend anyone in particular, but because I actually care—and out of pure frustration. I want to believe the dream is still alive, that someday people will be watching the tables I play on too. But right now, it’s dying in front of my eyes.
"How dare the people playing for crazy high stakes care about how much money they make" you sound like a complete r3tard dude. HS regs dont control the rake on a site. On GG theyve been battling super high rake the whole time and now theyre banned from even playing in the games. blaming the HS regs is like blaming a rape victim for being raped.
If you’d actually read this thread, you’d see that what I’m trying to say here resonates with a lot of others. Honestly, I feel sorry for those in your social circle, that if there is anyone left.
"How dare the people playing for crazy high stakes care about how much money they make" you sound like a complete r3tard dude. HS regs dont control the rake on a site. On GG theyve been battling super high rake the whole time and now theyre banned from even playing in the games. blaming the HS regs is like blaming a rape victim for being raped.
correct but it's the crying about elky being a scumbag and backstabbing them that's comical.elky is doing exactly what every single one of them would do.
I like how some guys shows up in threads like this from time to time…
You can see they can’t beat online and are trying to cope saying how online sucks etc
online does suck. there's nothing fun about it. If you enjoy it good for you. Keep at it. If you don't enjoy it/don't enjoy studying for it but do it purely for the money I honestly feel bad for you.
I'm long past the point in my life of doing things I don't enjoy for money. Lucky for me live is generally fun and still quite profitable.
If I was some broke 24 year old kid trying to work my way up in poker I'd do things a lot differently than I do right now which would include playing a lot more live than I currently do and probably moving to Texas.
Why wouldnt a professional be playing their own money in a whale only game?.... Even if they have a bad downswing they would have a massive line of people willing to stake them with excellent deals just to be able to get a piece of the exclusive game cake..
You get MUCH better deals when you start out not needing the backing then after the results prove you do not always win and you need the money.
Why wouldnt a professional be playing their own money in a whale only game?.... Even if they have a bad downswing they would have a massive line of people willing to stake them with excellent deals just to be able to get a piece of the exclusive game cake..
Well they were playing like 200nl before this, and now theyre open sitting waiting for ppl to join. Doesnt take a genius to conclude theyre being given the money to fire the games as part of their sponsorship deal. Likely they are allowed to keep x% of the remaining chips at the end of the week or something like that
online does suck. there's nothing fun about it. If you enjoy it good for you. Keep at it. If you don't enjoy it/don't enjoy studying for it but do it purely for the money I honestly feel bad for you.
I'm long past the point in my life of doing things I don't enjoy for money. Lucky for me live is generally fun and still quite profitable.
If I was some broke 24 year old kid trying to work my way up in poker I'd do things a lot differently than I do right now which would include playing a lot more
“Online sucks, there’s no fun about it”
This is not a fact, it’s your opinion, which is fine to have off course.
Lots of people prefer online than live. Btw I like both and I think I prefer live a bit more but routine like games starting late and finish in the morning it makes impossible to play live as a pro.
Anyway, this thread is about online games, if you don’t like and think it sucks, what you doing here lol
I mean, there’s what? a dozen regs trying to skin 2 dozen whales at these stakes… we all know that most HS regs are not interested in battling each other and tbh why would you, so I guess if you want to play a guy that will punt off 500k with 3rd pair you need to suck it up and pay more rake.
I feel like angling that this is somehow bad for the poker economy is really condescending.
I'm not sure I'd say HS regs are complicit, that seems like a reach, none of us has ever had any say in how the sites handle the ecology or the rake or whatever, they just do whatever the **** they want... and that's that, we just play where we think we can show a profit and that's about it
except for streamers I guess which is another conversation
Strange then that the original post specifically describes HS regs banding together to limit how much a site rakes from them.
Can these numbers be right? Had no idea online high stakes had such high rake... seems more like rake from a high stake NYC homegame or something.
Seems a lot of people posting about how Elky and Fedor backstabbed the pro's. Maybe I don't have all the info but that seems a bit much.
The way I understand stand it they are like ambassadors. Isn't it possible that this decision was made by GG alone? Or was there some kind of proof that they were the ones pushing for GG to implement the changes?
Because they thought they were the favored ones that forced a site to lower the rake they paid and are upset to find the site favors those that give them a cut and cares about their profit more than about making it possible for the HS regs to loot the whales the site finds.
I'm not pointing my finger at any one person but at the community itself; community composed of influencers and voices that could reach the public space/media and people in power who could actually push things in the right direction.
Not true, TylerRM has done tons of work for stakes as low as nl50 i think. Mobius, Berkey and George are litterally always standing up for players in every single question. Lower stakes are in general also fair and doesnt need any change/help lol.
I'm surprised by the fact this is surprising to some of you. We are talking about possibly the least reg-friendly site that has ever existed; they literally stated you were not welcome if you planned to make a living off poker.
Am I missing something or regs tend to overestimate their importance to the site? They don't need you, it's as simple as that.
They don't need you because as long as there's fish there will be regs coming in to take their money, regardless of how much GG reduces their bb/100: if regs go away -because of rake- the fish will play and as games becomes incredibly soft the necessary amount of regs will play. I completely disagree with the idea that regs are essential to the ecosystem, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. If someone tells me "but they keep the games running" or some other platitude I'll simply answer that apparently GG has already done the math, and come to the conclusion that games will run anyway.
Right because playing 20 hands an hour with smelly people is the epitome of fun please shut up forever.
Hahah haven't played with anyone smelly in a while!
Nah I won't shut up. I'll talk at the table,joke around with people,drink and actually enjoy myself. If you enjoy playing online -not just talking about the money - but actually enjoy it then good for you. Keep it up.
Don't get me wrong there are definitely torture tables live that aren't enjoyable and if you're playing NL in 2024 then I get why you find live so boring.
You are running hot on that aspect, sooner o later you will meet the stinkiest ones.
The poker community is not taking enough showers. That's why online is the best form o poker
A few years ago I sat next to someone who smelled like a dumpster and was trying to show people his circuit ring from ten years earlier. The next time I played with him he smelled even worse and the floor had to make him leave.
I've definitely been running well in this aspect lately.
1) I don't believe HS regs will play regs at lower rake structures as well (unless they're sharing action)
2) I can't believe people still play on GG after the MoneyTaker situation anyway.
3) Online is better than live because being nocturnal sucks
1) I don't believe HS regs will play regs at lower rake structures as well (unless they're sharing action)
2) I can't believe people still play on GG after the MoneyTaker situation anyway.
3) Online is better than live because being nocturnal sucks
How detached from reality can you be, people are battling harder than ever . Big HU matches going constantly, some with blinds in the thousands going on for 6 figure amount of hands. ACR which is 2nd biggest site, on their highest stake (20k nl) there is litterally 95% of the volume being regbattles. Regs are playing each other daily without a fish showing up for weeks/months. I'm not really sure what you mean by sharing action, if the players playing each other and sharing action you just end up paying rake to the site? If you are implying that people have shares of each other I can tell you that its super uncommon. However in private games (like the one gg running now) it is super common that you have to sell the game runner a piece (elky and fedor in this case)
It has probably been like 6-7 years at least since BERRI even saw a fish.
I dont get where this narrative comes from, maybe its jealousy. But the whole idea that HS regs are just looking out for themselves is silly. Regardless of your skill or stake, the vast majority of players incentives allign (99%) . The only ones benefitting from these arrangements are the sites, the sponsored pros and the handful of pros they select that get to play in exchange for giving them a piece.
Well they were playing like 200nl before this, and now theyre open sitting waiting for ppl to join. Doesnt take a genius to conclude theyre being given the money to fire the games as part of their sponsorship deal. Likely they are allowed to keep x% of the remaining chips at the end of the week or something like that
They didnt play higher prior because they were basically fish for the high stakes regs who would insta join if they saw ****ign Elky sitting. The guy hasnt been a top player for over 15 years. Now that the regs cant sit, him and Fedor have no problem sitting there waiting for whales to appear.
It is just the Xth attempt of GG to take off meritocracy from the game. Those who were barely beating the game or not even playing at all are those who gonna make more money. and the rest just being rake machine slaves. Why this platform hate regs and poker so much? Is not gonna even benefit recs anyway, just benefeting those GG ambassadors who can play those games
