Regulated Market GGpoker.ca Blatantly allowing bot farm
Most low/midstake Ontario players who have looked into it agree something is going on while not all agree with my prop player theory almost everyone thinks something is going on. Also the fact many regs have sent emails to gg about this makes it unlikely they are bots since in theory they are so obvious they would have done something about it.
This is also in a new regulated market that started about 15 months ago. (gg launched 12 months ago) The whole point of regulation is to not allow stuff like this. If Ontario wants a cut of the pie they should do something about it. I think writing this thread will be a lot more effective to bring it to their attention then writing to some guy in Ottawa that has never played online poker in his life. I get this stuff happens on unregulated sites like acr all the time but if were going to let are governments ringfence us they can at least fight for them to do their job.
While you never may have a smoking gun for something like this I think most poker players should have a strong base of mathematics, statistics, and Probability. Say one player plays 8pm-5am everyday for 11 months and no other times that would just be weird but not suspicious. If you have 12 players all doing that it becomes very strange but it could still mathematically be a coincidence. But when we have 12 players doing this and 10 other things that most people don't do it becomes so astronomically likely that they are working together or have someone telling them what they can and cannot do. At this point it becomes a fact. These guys do not really try to hide it I think you will see its very obvious.
I think the best example for this is when a famous Minecraft youtuber named dream was exposed for cheating on his speed runs. Mathematicians were about to conclude that there was only 1 in 7.5 trillion odds he didn't cheat which exposed him to using a mod to change item drop rates in the game. He got lucky on all the item drops if he just got lucky on one or two he probably would have never been exposed. While I didn't want to spend the money to hire someone to back me up this is the principal we will be using to prove they are working together.
Other then that your just going to have to trust the info me and other Ontario Regs have gathered some added info and screenshots can surely be provided
Key Notes
- 1. They play nl100/nl200 sometimes nl50. NEVER NL500 this is important later
- 2. They all multitable 9+tables minimum.
- 3. They dont table select and will play each other 5 handed. If they had the standard rakeback% there is no way they could all do this without going broke. They almost certainly have a special deal
- 4. Most of them are quite nitty and all would be considered quite bad in the global pool. but in a ring fenced Canada site they are all certainly winning players.
- 5. GGpoker has a bad beat jackpot and they win alot of them... but we do not suspect collusion here or in normal play
- 6. Its possible they don't even live in Ontario and remote in. Ontario has the softest mid stakes games in the world probably but you have to live in Ontario to play them.
- 7. All 12 have played pretty fulltime hours since November and non have quit as far as I know. They play about 4-6 days a week rotate days off.
- 8. They are the only regs on the site who play ggpokers allinorfold. The rakes too high and the stakes are too low no one plays this trash but them.. amongst themselves for 1$ stakes
- 9. They make up about 50-70% of EVERY PLAYER during the 8-5 timeslot this is not a minor ring it is a high percentage of the players when you consider multitables
The Evidence
- 1. 8pm-5am est play only. zero exceptions over 9-10 months. Games are easier before 8pm so them choosing only this timeslot is strange. They always show up at 8pm on the dot no exceptions.
- 2. They don't actively play for the gg leaderboard they will stop playing a few hands from pay jumps. (massively -ev) GG rake is very high this massively lowers the effective rake.
- 3 No nl500 shot take in 10 million+ of combined hands. They have combined 200k+gg jackpot winnings . One of 12 winning players would have if they were not being told to play certain stakes.
- 4. Register 1$ allin or fold sngs everynight . This is much much smaller stakes then they play on other tables. They just reg it and it rarely goes off
- 5 Play .10 allinfold cash tables with 1$ in play while 14 tabling 1/2$ tables with 2k+ in play everynight
- 6.11/12 are losing players at aof sngs on Sharkscope but still push the games at really low stakes they should not be playing.( sharkcope included too bad they got rid of that huh?)
- 7. They never waitlist even if all tables are full they will just wait for open seats. This highly suggest they might all be using the same seating script or can only join tables that need a player.
- 8. They Rarely talk. a few rare exceptions (we do think they are individuals) People often try to interact with them and are ignored including sponsored pros
- 9. Run it once. (its more button clicking because of constant cashout offers. Its actually less ev because you can play less tables and ignore the allin so its against the norm for miltitablers.
- 10.No one in Ontario knows any of them (we all know each other. Its a very small poker community we are literally all in the same discord 80%+ of other regs )
- 11 No tournaments played until recently which were all satellites for major tournament that they started at offpeak times and only amongst themselves with the winner going directly into the money for a very high ro
i
Keep in mind while each of these things individually is not that suspicious. The fact they all follow these rules with little or no exception as a group makes it improbable that they are not working together in some way and following set guidelines set by someone above them.
The id's
Rainonme
su!@takemymoney
Tyler_win
ar@na
T_H_E
burrrrrr12
invincible152
doncryingfish
planethack
p@int
ggmasterKK
scops owl
Counter theory's-
I guess they could be a stable but this theory doesn't really pass the test. They all play at hours with less fish and against each other and never during the day when the games are the softest. As a winning player at the limits they play they are simply all collectively doing very dumb -ev things together. You would have to be a very shitty stable manager to run it like this. They start at 8am in china so it would have to be a foreign stable to make sense imo. They could be a stable but they would have to be a stable ggpoker hired to prop up their games.
Its possible they are bots but they seem to have their own slightly different playstyles and personality's and love to spam the emojis 😀. GG has been let aware of them and done nothing making this theory weaker imo. People have played alot of hands vs them and dont feel they are bots.
Coincidence? Na your kind of gullible if you believe this sorry. they are not a small percentage of the player pool. During the hours they play they make up about 50-70% of the total players online at their stake if you count multitables. About 30% of all nl100 traffic for the entire day. we do not have a big sample to find 12 players with these discrepancies but we find it. I think its quite obvious gg wants to win the lucrative Ontario market share of online poker and gambling.
Why they got away with this so long and may still
Small market
Everyone in Ontario is making heaps of money and don't really care
Most pros play 2-5+ play above them and just don't care what happens below them but we clearly have villain's mining out the 1/2 recs and not moving up which means less 2/5 recs
Players think because they beat them its ok. its just really bad for the longterm ecosystem.
GGpoker is quite profitable and generous on rb. They might not want to tap the glass. ggpoker Ontario has no pvi for example. We assume this is because it would be against fair play regulation.
I think there's a small fear of getting banned or targeted by one of the only places we can play online poker. I kind of expected the bigger Ontario names to bring it up.
What can be done about it
As every state/province/country in the world slowly becomes ringfenced and "government regulated" we need to have higher standards of what we allow these poker sites to do. I know you may not live in Ontario Canada but if you allow this to go on when your state or country opens up online poker or makes it geo restricted they will try this on you too. I imagine a very big boom is coming in the states after they see what Canada is doing. Alerting regulators to this by making a public thread is really all I could come up with im sure many people have already emailed them.
The United States will never join the global pool in are lifetime. But they might join the Canadian market or make their own similar one.
This is taken from the Ontario imaging website Im no lawyer but I think having your site ran by prop/bots might be against regulation.
Sorry for any grammar or formatting mistakes this is not really my thing but sadly I don't think anyone else was ever gonna bring it up.
Before GG Poker segregated in Ontario I was recruited to play on GG poker by a player who funded my account through an agent. Both lived in Ontario and I was put on a rake back plan by the site that generated a kick back to the agent.
I would e-transfer money to the player who then had his friend/agent transfer money from his account to mine. If I cashed out the agent withdrew money from my account and would give cash to my friend/player and he would etransfer or provide cash. Since I played out of province we e-transfered.
I ended up binking a larger tournament and wanted a direct banking transfer. The agent just wanted to give 30+k in cash. I ended up sending in my banking info and legitimizing my account to start banking transfers.
Oh, did I leave that part out? Up until my account was proactively verified on my part it was never verified and I was able to have thousands of dollars paid out to me via the method I described above (e-transfer) I had won several cash game jackpots before I binked the tournament
The moral of this is I realized there was a subculture of accounts playing unverified on the GGpoker site, including my own, that were depositing to an agent and withdrawing under the counter through the agent. Now, if a site needs to follow proper financial transactions and guidelines to abide by governmental tax laws, they definitely weren’t doing that and I would guess still are not.
Within a month of breaking free of this shady under the counter crap my account was banned. I had noticed I was being sat by an account heads up that had a seating script and was following meup to $5-10 cash tables. I was very passionate about letting GG poker know about this and they just decided to ban me. Having a player cash out 30k+ and call them out about their game integrity flaws was a no no.
So basically one thing I saw and experienced was accounts can be made on GG poker that will never be verified and make financial transactions under the table through agents. Is it possible numerous accounts can be made and shared by one person or a stable of players. Yup. The possibilities are endless as the agent I was aware of was either friends with or had close personal ties with a member of GG poker security/game integrity (so I was told)
I would not trust GG poker whatsoever. The morality of this site and some people involved are suspect. At best.
Before GG Poker segregated in Ontario I was recruited to play on GG poker by a player who funded my account through an agent. Both lived in Ontario and I was put on a rake back plan by the site that generated a kick back to the agent.
I would e-transfer money to the player who then had his friend/agent transfer money from his account to mine. If I cashed out the agent withdrew money from my account and would give cash to my friend/player and he would etransfer or provide cash. Since I played out
I guess I left out an important part as it relates to this thread. Although I was never asked to collude or cheat or partake in anything nefarious, (i was rogue just looking to bink tournaments and have fun with cash on a newer platform) the fact that you could so easily make an account and play unverified would lead me to believe that what you describe above is more than plausible.
I would guess the agent and minions are whats left of the poker pipe dream and they make their money through running underground home games, pokerbros, and rakeback from any recruits like myself
Fun fact Canadians are technically not allowed on gg even over a year ago that is why we had to use agents to bypass it. They currently do this for Russians Germans etc they will blatantly break any country's laws/botcots usually hiding behind different "skins" . I think only acr and ggpoker are cringe enough to help launder Russian money currently that tells you a lot about their ethics.
This means ggpoker was breaking regulators rules before and still might be. Sites like pokerstars and wsop have respected the integrity of national laws and that's why they have usually been the first choice for regulated sites.
The main reason sites dont allow American players is because they dont want to missout if they ever regulate. If your blacklisted by american regulators when they do it your sites pretty finished.
GG on the other hand I have no idea how they got a license in Ontario without respecting its laws . Probably because they originally partnered with wsop who they have since cut ties with.
Essentially ggpoker entered its first regulated market so in theory they should need to clean these things up but i am sure no steps have been made
Fun fact Canadians are technically not allowed on gg even over a year ago that is why we had to use agents to bypass it. They currently do this for Russians Germans etc they will blatantly break any country's laws/botcots usually hiding behind different "skins" . I think only acr and ggpoker are cringe enough to help launder Russian money currently that tells you a lot about their ethics.
GG on the other hand I have no idea how they got a license in Ontario without respecting its laws . Probably
Normally the way you get government licenses while breaking the law is bribing people.
I would like to add to the evidence to prove they are working together. something that slipped my mind This should make it go from 10000000000000000000x100-1 to 10000000000000000000000000000x100-1
12. Every new years and at random points gg offers you to change your screen name. They also give you name changes based on secret variables. People of similar volume have been offered it 5-8 times. So on average each of these players must have been given about 6-7 name change offers 2 for each new year and 5 random ones. The only time any of them have ever changed name was after jan 1st 2023 when they all changed their name at the same time. The chance of them being given this many name changes and them only name changing once at the same time unilaterally and them not being a bot farm is pretty astronomical in itself.
Multiply this by the other 11 abnormalities and this has more or as much proof as any superuser or botfarm thread currently running. Anyone who understands statistics and probability's knows this 100% proves they are a bot farm possibly ran by gg itself so that brings me to my next point why does no one care? The other threads got on podcasts and twitter threads within days this has been sitting dormant for months. I have pmed many International poker players who never respond
My best guess is because its a non American site and my poor thread title choice. RIP Canada. But we should not be giving them a pass. This is essentially a test run for when America opens up so you guys should very much care.
As an American I acknowledge this is bad for poker and the “poker economy” as a whole.
We’re reaching a breaking point where either online goes to die or they get some sort of worldwide independent regulatory body.
I’m sure all these sites are a cash grab and they have no idea how long until they get shutdown so they are incentivized to have cheating in house.
My best advice would be only to play on sites that you are winning on if not don’t even play.
Every site has collusion and bots and may have props and super users. Anything is possible.
Per request I have changed the title of the thread (bot farm).
agreed but we still have to pressure them. ggpoker.com and acr have less bots and superusers this week because of community pressure. Ontario Canada already has that independent regulatory body your talking about they just suck. so lets pressure them to suck less. with are help maybe it can become something that saves online poker.
Question would be posting videos of me playing them hu and abusing their tendencies and showing their absord lobby usage help here? We have no access to datamined hands for the people who need to see classic raw data
agreed but we still have to pressure them. ggpoker.com and acr have less bots and superusers this week because of community pressure. Ontario Canada already has that independent regulatory body your talking about they just suck. so lets pressure them to suck less. with are help maybe it can become something that saves online poker.
Question would be posting videos of me playing them hu and abusing their tendencies and showing their absord lobby usage help here? We have no access to datamined han
naive much eh?
The difference between the "bots" that are here is that they are massively losing players (in the range of at least -10bb/100 to -100bb/100) while the bots on ACR are winning millions.
Somehow, Target (who plays for a living at 25nl), still struggles to beat them.
Didn't see this thread until today, but good work OP on the detective work.
I don't really see what the point of this botfarm would be, though. What is GG gaining by doing this?
They are not losing players. if they were losing players they would not have played a combined 20+ million hands because they would not have the money or incentive to do so. if you post they are losing players plz post your evidence troll. I estimated they have taken a million dollars out of the pool. They have probably won close to 300k+ in jackpots alone. This can be seen in the jackpot history tabs
Didn't see this thread until today, but good work OP on the detective work.
I don't really see what the point of this botfarm would be, though. What is GG gaining by doing this?
over a year ago Ontario with a population of 15million launched a ringfence regulated market mostly around sport betting and online casino with poker thrown in. Licenses were highly sought after and up to 4 licenses were given to poker sites that also offer casino. Even now I doubt a site like gg cares much about its poker section and only use these sites to attract people to its online casino where the real money is.
Ontario has a higher gdp then country's including Sweden and Norway more then Finland and Denmark combined. Its a major market so you can understand why they would fight for a piece of that.
It has
Pokerstars
ggpoker (they originally partnered with wsop but kicked them to the curb) I wouldn't be surprised if his is how gg was able to secure its license
partypoker
888poker
All launched sites with insane overlay and rakeback in an attempt to gain marketshares over its competitors. Everything was overlaying and the sites didn't care they were shown willing to lose alot of short term money to gain marketshares. Heres my mtt sharkscope results from the first few months of the launch.
I will make 80k Rakeback this year alone playing cash games with nl50 as my average stake. the rakeback system is probably better then stars old supernova elite system (no pvi). GG has shown it is willing to make no money short term to win longterm market shares
GGpoker is winning the cash game market by far mostly because of these 11 players starting tables so there is quite a lot of incentive to allow or run a botfarm. Its possible it is incompetence's too
GG on the other hand I have no idea how they got a license in Ontario without respecting its laws . Probably because they originally partnered with wsop who they have since cut ties with.
Source for this? Because AFAIK GG is still running online WSOP events and ClubGG is still offering free packages to live events, so the partnership remains in effect.
They are not losing players. if they were losing players they would not have played a combined 20+ million hands because they would not have the money or incentive to do so. if you post they are losing players plz post your evidence troll. I estimated they have taken a million dollars out of the pool. They have probably won close to 300k+ in jackpots alone. This can be seen in the jackpot history tabs
It's impossible to gather cash game evidence for specific players on GG without them willingly giving up their hand histories (which they won't).
Now from my experience and other players, no good reg struggles playing against them so clearly they are losing players. You say otherwise, because, well, you're just a bad poker player who struggles against the weakest of regs.
You keep bringing up jackpots. It is literally a 0 EV thing. You claim they've won 300k+ in jackpots alone, but they've easily contributed that amount based on their volume.
You say they've played 20 million+ hands. Assuming only 5% of hands reach 30bb+ (threshold before the jackpot rake is taken), that's 1 million hands. Since they play 50nl - 200nl, let's use 100nl as the average stake. So, that means they've contributed 1 million to the jackpot fund. Clearly they aren't winning money.
Imagine if you used this effort/time of slandering a group of regs to get better in poker or life lol
Can someone give cliffs? Is Kooky one of the accused bots?
hes my internet stalker who has doxxed me in this thread and to the Ontario poker community. plz ignore him I have asked the mods to ban him from the thread multiple times. hes some random online loser I won money from who was banned from gg for collusion.
The only point he made that has some interest is he states the players are not very good. While this is true they are still winning players.
The thing is its better to win a couple bb/100 and go unpunished for a year then win at 8bb/100 and be caught instantly.
Just because me and many other people can beat them and choose to play them does not mean they are not stealing ev from the games.
The ones who get caught easily are the money takers of the world. Its much harder to catch the ones who are winning small
Source for this? Because AFAIK GG is still running online WSOP events and ClubGG is still offering free packages to live events, so the partnership remains in effect.
here https://pokerindustrypro.com/news/articl...
originally the site was called wsop.ca and ggpoker was the minor or equal partner just supplying the software. After a couple months they rebranded to ggpoker.ca and most things related to wsop were deleted from the site. They are likely still a minor partner however I am unsure. Wsop is definitely not equal partners anymore at ggpoker.ca. If you type in wsop.ca in your web browser you will be redirected to ggpoker.ca give it a try.
As an outsider it looks like to me they used their global partnership to use wsop's name to get a license since gg has a very bad reputation among regulators since they openly allow vpns and players from banned countrys and russia.
From a prelaunch article
"The platform will launch under the name WSOP.CA in early April with the help of GGPoker’s online poker technology. The exact date has not yet been decided as GGPoker, WSOP, and the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario are still ironing out details over their WSOP.CA agreement.
here https://pokerindustrypro.com/news/articl...
originally the site was called wsop.ca and ggpoker was the minor or equal partner just supplying the software. After a couple months they rebranded to ggpoker.ca and most things related to wsop were deleted from the site. They are likely still a minor partner however I am unsure. Wsop is definitely not equal partners anymore at ggpoker.ca. If you type in wsop.ca in your web browser you will be redirected
This is not evidence of the partnership between WSOP and GG ending.
originally the site was called wsop.ca and ggpoker was the minor or equal partner just supplying the software. After a couple months they rebranded to ggpoker.ca and most things related to wsop were deleted from the site. They are likely still a minor partner however I am unsure. Wsop is definitely not equal partners anymore at ggpoker.ca. If you type in wsop.ca in your web browser you will be redirected to ggpoker.ca give it a try.
As an outsider it looks like to me they used their global partnership to use wsop's name to get a license since gg has a very bad reputation among regulators since they openly allow vpns and players from banned countrys and russia.
I don't think you understand what a partnership is (or a license, or the reputation of GG among regulators--you are 100% pulling all of this out of your ass), and unless you have an article or other source claiming WSOP and GG have severed theirs, I will assume it is still in effect.
I never said they severed ties. I said gg used the wsop name to get a license.
Its not a secret gg has a bad rep among regulators. sites like Pokerstars wont allow Americans. gg and acr will allow Americans. gg and acr will never get a license in America. You get a bad rep among regulators by doing this. that much is obvious. Im not an insider im just making comments I think are obvious
They cut them as the name brand and likely equal partner to a minor partner. this is really off topic and not worth discussing
They cut them as the name brand and likely equal partner to a minor partner. this is really off topic and not worth discussing
Stop making stuff up and people won't call you out for it. What is happening with wsop.ca is not evidence that GG and WSOP have altered their partnership in any way, and more likely has to do with the Ontario gaming commission and its regulations in that very specific subcommunity than anything about the relationship between the two.
do you work for gg? why do you care. can you plz tell them to investigate these guys thanks. your focusing on a sidenote . Can you supplie evidence of the gg brand getting ringfence licenses anywhere else? because this was the first and possibly last and they got in under the wsop name not the gg name. I only brought it up to explain that this site likely has independent management from the main GG global.
Your making this about the global wsop partnership which I never brought up. I never made any comment about their global wsop partnership I dont know anything about that. this is Ontario sir
