Widespread cheating at high stakes / pinhole cams on the felt
Listening to solve for why podcast today and got more details on the cheating Berkey had alluded to last week. Sounds like an organized cheating ring using pinhole cams in a variety of objects to pick up the cards as dealt (have to be in the one or two seat) have been at it for quite a while. Video is relayed externally (maybe even to a call center offshore?) and relayed to the player via an earpiece. Players appear to be whales making insane plays on the river.
Was not totally clear, but sounds like it was employed at a $50k wsop event this year, a Triton event, and several private high stakes games. Did not have time to listen to the entire podcast, but believe someone was arrested.
This thread is disturbing. I don't mind losing to you sick geniuses, it is going to happen, but losing to this? I mean I watch movies about some wild west poker and if you cheat you die, supposdely I guess. I wasn't there. You can try to ban phones, not a bad idea. A cheat will find some other way. Only a real punishment will do anything. Anything actually happen to poslte, will anything happen to this korean guy? If they aren't scared they will take what you have all day.
When it comes to the average 2/5 NL game at well run card rooms, these cheating techniques being discussed don’t really apply right? Like the cards are not RFID and a small camera, even on a ring, shouldn’t be able to pick up the cards being dealt. Am I being naive?
When it comes to the average 2/5 NL game at well run card rooms, these cheating techniques being discussed don’t really apply right? Like the cards are not RFID and a small camera, even on a ring, shouldn’t be able to pick up the cards being dealt. Am I being naive?
You could easily be cheated by the method described in Berkeys pod. It is widespread as well. Even if they banned phones from the table it wouldn't matter for this particular type of cheating. When you say "well run cardrooms" I doubt most card room managers are aware of this right now. They speculate in the pod the WSOP was hit as well as many other places.
If the dealer is sliding the cards against the felt to the players it would stop this particular method of cheating from being possible.
When it comes to the average 2/5 NL game at well run card rooms, these cheating techniques being discussed don’t really apply right? Like the cards are not RFID and a small camera, even on a ring, shouldn’t be able to pick up the cards being dealt. Am I being naive?
My philosophy has always been that it would be safer and MORE profitable to do these things at the avg 2/5 game. Large buy in games always create more issues.
Like I said. Sad to see you go. I’d rather upset a few stubborn people like yourself than to allow people to continue cheating.
But that’s just my opinion. I get yours is different.
You still have it wrong, I’m not going anywhere as they aren’t going to ban people from looking at their phones, at least in 99% of games we are talking about. But Buh Bye if you choose not to play.
If the dealer is sliding the cards against the felt to the players it would stop this particular method of cheating from being possible.
Exactly. I don't know why the phone ban tangent, although a phone ban might reduce ability to play pseudo-perfect GTO using a phone getting board cards and bet sizing from a concealed camera (or google glasses type device).
I understand the logistics of such a ban suck but I'd like to avoid another situation where people run sims on the rail and people on final tables get to go to them and ask them questions about what to do.
It's obviously not easy but clearly we're being forced into a live poker scene where all electronics are banned or accept that cheating is now ''part of the game'' as we have ''accepted'' on many online sites.
Can speak for live. It's the average **** reg that is glued to his phone, where most
You ban electronics on the table. That is easy. For the rail, the logistics of a ban are effectively impossible unless you ban having a rail. What you do is make it $10K or whatever if you are caught using electronics or running sims or etc. Thus the casual rail can have their phone no prob but the GTO kids can’t run sims.
If you just ban rail electronics, what is the penalty for violating?
casinos are not going to want to ban all phone use. I think that's been well established.
But this is far from the first well-documented incident of cheating being possible because someone had their phone ON THE FELT. Why can't we ban that? There's no reason a phone ever needs to be on the felt. I understand that such a ban doesn't eradicate all cheating, but it helps, and does very little collateral damage unlike some other proposals
They use single deck shoes at the casino in Sydney. It would be easy for any dealer to adapt to using one.
There's been a rule against phones on the felt for some time, but it's often not enforced. Phones are the most convenient device to hold the camera since they already have a battery and means of sending the images to an assistant, but you could also put them in any number of innocuous looking card protectors. Then there's the matter of bracelets, watches, and rings. Are you going to ban people from wearing jewelry, or say they have to keep their hands off the felt during the pitch?
Short of moving to using shoes everywhere, it seems like banning items of all kinds on the felt and keeping an eye out for players placing their hands in a specific position every time the dealer starts pitching. Also, managers should be cracking down on dealers who pitch too high.
whatever the swedish casinos do you always do the opposite, they have almost shut down every casino due to noone plays there
Nah, other changes is the main culprit of this. The interest for poker has dwindled, less omegatype of whales enter the premises to gamble, along with how hard it is to get significant money to the felt and off without the hassle and hurdles, no backpack at the table rule isnt the reason lol, contrary almost every whale ive spoken with used to LOVE casino cosmopol. It is just the last cpl of years it gone downhill because the government tries to shut it down and does so quietly by making it worse and worse so people stop going and then they can blame renevue.
Exactly. I don't know why the phone ban tangent, although a phone ban might reduce ability to play pseudo-perfect GTO using a phone getting board cards and bet sizing from a concealed camera (or google glasses type device).
Because most if not all recent cheating events have used phones. Yes dealers sliding cards instead of throwing them would be a good fix too.
You ban electronics on the table. That is easy. For the rail, the logistics of a ban are effectively impossible unless you ban having a rail. What you do is make it $10K or whatever if you are caught using electronics or running sims or etc. Thus the casual rail can have their phone no prob but the GTO kids can’t run sims.
If you just ban rail electronics, what is the penalty for violating?
Might be the future of the WSOP.
casinos are not going to want to ban all phone use. I think that's been well established.
But this is far from the first well-documented incident of cheating being possible because someone had their phone ON THE FELT. Why can't we ban that? There's no reason a phone ever needs to be on the felt. I understand that such a ban doesn't eradicate all cheating, but it helps, and does very little collateral damage unlike some other proposals
I believe this is banned in a lot of places it's just hardly enforced.
You solve these problems or you are going to see this game die a death. People will play poker even when they know they are taking the worst of it for various reasons but if they think they are getting cheated they will stop playing and never come back to the game.
They use single deck shoes at the casino in Sydney. It would be easy for any dealer to adapt to using one.
There's been a rule against phones on the felt for some time, but it's often not enforced. Phones are the most convenient device to hold the camera since they already have a battery and means of sending the images to an assistant, but you could also put them in any number of innocuous looking card protectors. Then there's the matter of bracelets, watches, and rings. Are you going to ban peo
The floor at Parx was walking around the high limit tables and asking players to remove all electronic equipment (phones, AirPod cases, etc) from the felt. Not a complete solution, but really obvious first step along with fixing the mechanics of dealers with high pitches. Probably important to remind everyone the camera embedded in the ring thing is only speculation and the only proven incidence was a cell phone with its camera angle changed. I know a small amount about very tiny cameras used in medicine and those are not HD cameras with high frame rates or zoom capabilities. The video being described isn’t an easy shot. The card is moving and spinning with decent speed, dark inconsistent lighting on shiny surface, object of focus changing rapidly… you need a decent camera. Policing the obvious stuff goes a long way.
Gonna xpost this next time I see the "online is dead/everyone is RTA" that gets posted ad nauseum on this site.
Clearly all poker formats have issues with cheating.
Gonna xpost this next time I see the "online is dead/everyone is RTA" that gets posted ad nauseum on this site.
Clearly all poker formats have issues with cheating.
Crazy this was the exact post I was going to make when I opened this thread. Who would have thought that not even live poker is safe from all the cheating and rta.
Crazy this was the exact post I was going to make when I opened this thread. Who would have thought that not even live poker is safe from all the cheating and rta.
It was always just a matter of time. To think live poker couldn't be cheated is naïve, it's just not as ''easy''.
To pretend live is as cheated/rta'd as online is obviously silly but impossible to disagree with ''Clearly all poker formats have issues with cheating''.
To pretend live is as cheated/rta'd as online is obviously silly but impossible to disagree with ''Clearly all poker formats have issues with cheating''.
I agree and obviously it’s super unlikely someone has an earpiece in your local 2/5 game. But, there is a cognitive dissonance from live players about cheating so I gotta stick it to them when I can 😉
Ppl act like live is unequivocally the future of poker and this discussion about whether phones should be outright banned shows it will face its own logistical issues.
Intuitively banning phones seems logical.
Generally speaking when one is trying to fix an issue the solution should not make matters worse. Banning phones would chase off a significant % of recs who can go with alternative gaming without the burden of turning off or disabling their phones.
Yes dealers sliding cards instead of throwing them would be a good fix too.
In addition to thwarting felt cams, using a shoe demonstrates to onlookers that the establishment is taking seriously opportunities to cheat. Players would be willing to play for higher stakes as confidence of a fair game increases. It also addresses weak dealers to some degree, which is a chronic issue with live poker.
It would add about 15 sec per game, which amounts to about 3 fewer hands per hour. Basically what was gained with BBA.
Overall a net + IMO.
Lol, did anyone else start thinking the sketchy regs at their local card room when they heard about this? Oh, just me? Okay cool.
Cuz I've had my eye on the old guy with tons of jewellery who never seems to lose for quite some time now.
The situation is a mess and they are going to have to do things to deal with more advanced technology. However, cheating, etc. is much worse in private / underground games and worse than that online.
