Should I shove more on live tournament rather than minraise?
30% field left
Hero BU 10bb opens T♦T♥
SB 26bb flat, BB 30bb flat
Flop Q♥3♥7♥
BB donk 3bb, Hero shove, BU call with K♥Q♥
BB end up folding(He said he has 37o)
In theory, BU 10bb TT is a very strong hand to open
But there are too many call in live tournament, their skill is not that bad, just like to call a lot
Should I just open shove more(99-JJ) to avoid BB 37o come in?
19 Replies
With 10 bb's I am open shoving every hand I raise with (regardless of my position).
I do this with < 15 bb's which is not the standard here. Most people here shove with < 12 bb's for the most part (some might min raise with a small range like AA/KK/JTs/T9S).
You might want to clear up your post. Are you the BTN? If so it is the SB calling. But the Q♥ appears to be both on the flop and in the SB's hand... What actually happened?
If somebody has KQs they may call the 10 bb shove but they may also fold because you will be shoving a lot with Ax
You could have some minraises, maybe limps so less of your stack. However, I would raise/gii a stronger range than this. Would shove TT/AK. You can r/f a few hands not strong enough to push. You could push everything though. Minraising a wide range with this stack is bad. From a results-oriented point of view, KQs should call a button push. If you had like 15xBB, then probably minraise rather more than shove.
I am sorry, a few mistype
30% field left
Hero BU 10bb opens T♦T♥
SB 26bb flat, BB 30bb flat
Flop Q♥3♥7♥
BB donk 3bb, Hero shove, SB call with K♥J♥
BB end up folding(He said he has 37o)
I think shoving TT from the button is just fine here. It's probably a little below what I'd be willing to minraise, but the other thing is, I don't really want to minraise it at a passive table where people take more flops. The minraise is in hopes of getting someone to just jam Ax type hands over you, or smaller pairs. They might call with a lot of those anyway if you just jam pre.
I am sorry, a few mistype
30% field left
Hero BU 10bb opens T♦T♥
SB 26bb flat, BB 30bb flat
Flop Q♥3♥7♥
BB donk 3bb, Hero shove, SB call with K♥J♥
BB end up folding(He said he has 37o)
As played this is probably a fold OTF. Sure players might donk some hands that you beat. But in my experience the donkbettor mostly will have at least a queen here And the fact you also have SB behind makes this hand a fold in my book. You will have 8bb and some more opportunities before the blinds reach you next time.
I think I would only shove AA/KK/QQ at a mix on a 10bb stack to induce. Hmm I would shove 10-10 bc seeing a flop against say 2 villains would be rough and folding after min opening and not seeing all 5 would be bad.
Hmm shove 10-10 here. It’s face up but im only min opening kk and aa as an exploit. Shove is fine also though with those hands to not be so straightforward. At 10bb, I’m just trying to follow a proper nash shove chart honestly.
You can have r/fs to balance opening QQ+. If you are not going to shove, you could consider some limps with 10xBB so as not to commit 20% of your stack.
Standard shove, but IMO limping TT would be better than miniraising, to induce/gii and it would be easier to play and maybe get away from postflop.
if they are aggro, minraise
generally just open shove
as played, F fold
Just shove. Anything else is fail.
Great responses so far, standard shove here as everyone has said. What I wanted to add was a discussion I had with a student the other day. He opened with TT off 14.5bb in EP and ended up getting into a tricky spot post to which I said "I may have just shoved pre there". I don't think it's always a shove, nor is it always an open off these 13-16bb stacks, but instead I think it's worth looking around the table and predicting some reactions from the villains. Say there are a few sub 18bb stacks at the table, opening TT off 15bb is perfect cause you can induce re-jams you're happy calling against. But say everyone at table is 30bb+ and no one can 3b/bluff us due to our stack size, therefore their actions get funneled towards flatting and us playing TT post flop OOP with less than 13bb can be tricky, we may want to just shove in that spot. Even if you just pick up the blinds and antes you're increasing your stack by almost 20% which is a reasonable outcome off this stack (and you can still get called by worse)
In formations where players call too much/3-bet too infrequently, I don't mind open jamming some of these awkward pairs that don't play great post, and min-raise a much more polar range.
As our opponents get better and/or have stack depths with more 3-bets available to them, we should almost always be min-raising and as it's a very easy raise/gii hand.
Never regret wanting to extend the hand as long as possible and force your opponents to play as many streets as necessary (OOP here too) against you. You want to own them and for the most part more opps to own means more likelihood to own.
That idea of "do I raise to scare away combos that will exploitably vpip" is such a huge leak. It's a provably exploitable philosophy.
Doesn't mean its never a bad computation to min it rather than ship it. Judicious need for protection to maximize EV is a fundamental determinant of the optimal strategy for your range. But in a case like this it would just a miscomputation--that's a lot easier to correct.
Think its extremely reasonable btw to compute TT as a 2biggie here. Literally any option (ship, 2bb, limp) are justifiable and could be some ICM effects (small ones here?) here too which cause distortions. Depends on assumptions.
In my opinion it would be best to flat and only continue if you flop a set or the flop is 9 and under, otherwise check and fold out. You can always find a better spot. Or push all in but there is no in between imo.
NO! IMO, TT is too strong here not to RFI ( And you've if you see players making mistakes, even better, like calling 37 o pre) - that is a win. Don't be results biassed, just play more
glglgl <3 -- Don't forget, when you play IP Postflop vs wide -EV ranges , EV is re-distriubted to you, especially with your strongest hands. That will attract $ to you if you keep doing it, which the rest of the commenters on here won't make. I hope this helps <3
Also if villain has Qh, I don't know how Qh can be on the flop. Probs a typo 😀
shipping it gets called by worse like 99.88 and folds out hands we're flipping against sometimes like KJ, KQ. when we just take it down we increase our stack by 20%. being able to afford another round of blinds and antes while looking for a spot to shove with a big chunk of the field gone is nice.
Raise is pretty awful. Puts you in difficult spots like this. Would raise/gii QQ+ or KK+.