ICM: Final table 6 player NLH Ring Event

1. congratulations on a deep run.

2. average stack is 1.83 mil, so you have four players below average stack

3. My icm calculations are as follows:

1. 22,480
2. 17,100
3-6. 13,930

An icm shop was worth 1k less than 3rd place.

4. ItÂ’s from everbet icm calculator, free download on line.

5. I donÂ’t think suggesting a icm chop is a fear of busting. I tend to talk chop when I am facing big blinds rather than after clearing the blinds.

6. Cut off still has to get through 1/2 the players at table.

7. I donÂ’t tend to lose sleep over how I play my last 10bbs so shoving as any A and losing is not that big of deal. I may not shove it if the big stack is button or blinds and very active but I donÂ’t fault you for doing it. I would not have turned down a icm chop at these numbers and then shove it.

8. With a icm chop the smaller stack are worth more.. I am surprised that the big stack gets knocked down to second place money. I might not do the deal as the chip leader, until down to four players.

Where are the two biggest stacks? Are they still yet to act or have they folded?

I think it is probably +$EV to shove here (just having an ace when the calling ranges are so ace-heavy is huge). However, with this stack distribution, it may not be the most profitable choice.

It matters quite a bit what you think of the other short stacks and their ICM sense. I would shove if they have a good sense of ICM-- that is, they're going to call you tight, and they aren't going to punt their stacks on hope). I would fold if I'm likely to get called wider than they should call, or if the other short stacks are going to be careless and I can ladder by waiting them out.

Minraising isn't necessarily an error, although that's based on other factors at the table and information on these particular players. I don't have that info, and since every situation is different, I can't even pin down exactly what I'd want them to be.

Wow do all these ring events have these kind of returns?

Thank you for your response. This is a WSOP Ring event, so they don't allow chops like the WPT or other tours do. I won a side event in the WPT two years ago, and they allowed chops. However, I declined because I felt that I could beat my two opponents and the chip stacks were more favorable at that time. Unfortunately, the WSOP doesn't allow chops. I really appreciate your input.

The biggest stack is on the small blind. That's one of the things I didn't consider properly. I looked at the clock and saw 6 minutes left in the current level. When I saw the Ace, I thought, "If I want to win the tournament, I need to start playing aggressively," but I chose not the best spot. The second in chips had already folded.

It depends on how many people buy into the tournament and the schedule. This one happened to be after the beginning of the $1,700 Main Event buy-in. The next day, they organized the same tournament with the same structure and guaranteed prize but only attracted 400 players because it was running alongside the Ladies Event and another event at the same time. It's kind of hit or miss depending on the day. I won a similar event two years ago and only won $21K for first prize. It is a 20-minute buy-in tournament with 20K in chips initially. Obviously, it is a small-stakes tournament. What is your opinion about the hand?

If the chip leader was in the big blind, it is probably a mistake, but an aggressive mistake. When shortstacked, I prefer making aggressive mistakes rather than passive ones.

He can call you wider because he can afford to, you are a small stack and he has 200k already invested in the pot. If it was another one of the small stacks in the bb and the bigger stacks folded in front of you, you still want a fold but I dont mind the shove.

A buddy of mine claims A6 off is the crappiest hand in poker because it gets you in a **** ton more trouble than 72 off.

It's definitely my least favorite ace. At least A2o-A5o can make a wheel.

My initial instinct is that A6 is close - as nath said, A2-A5o are maybe better although pretty sure sure none of those other than A5o want to open here.

I do think off 12bb we would lean more towards raise-folding this hand, which I like better than open jam. We do want to have hands that can raise-induce, like good pairs and our better Ax, and mixing those with our worst offsuit Ax as bluffs makes some sense. We can have some jams as well and IÂ’d think hands that would benefit from jams would be suited broadways, big offsuit Ax, middle pairs, etc. (where if you fold better great and if you get called you’re rarely dead)

Only Cherokee, NC. A few other stops get close but Cherokee blows it out of the water. Midweek $400 Monster Stack got 3k entrees across 3 starting flights.

@jjjou812:
The chip leader was in the sb, not the bb, so he had 50k in the pot, not 200k.

I suspect shoving A6o for 12 BB effective is likely an ICM mistake there (especially considering you have to get through the big stack, who can call wider than everyone else). You would much prefer to shove with the small suited aces like A2s-A5s that have additional flush and straight outs when called by relatively tight ranges.

If the players behind were not reshoving aggressively I would likely min-raise fold with the ace blocker. Holding an ace will make it less likely the other players reshove.

That being said if the ring and the bragging rights are worth more to you than the money there's nothing wrong with just playing for first and ignoring ICM. Shoving A6o will make chips on average, it just does so at the expense of busting early more often.

You are right. I do like it when the big stack is early to act when I am in the bb. Usually I want to be on the left of chip leader but sometimes it is best when he can't just keep raising your blinds with position.

This seems close, but I would fold. Axo plays much better with a shorter stack push or from later position, because you get called more by hands you are ahead of. Here you don't have good equity if called. Would push Axs or A6o from BTN.

This is sort of an awkward stack size, big for pushes and small for reshoves. I would wait. You will have more profitable pushes with a shorter stack and maybe you will get a good hand.

I was monkeying with the ICM calculator, raising the chip leaders stack for a knockout and eliminating a player. Surprising, but the chip leader adding 120k to his stack didn't increase his ICM share much beyond second place but most of the $$ went to the short stacks.

Yes, the laddering short stacks are always happy when someone else busts.

First make up your mind if you only care about the ring or you care about the money. If you are playing to win the tournament but not maximize EV then you can just use chip EV and shove.

Otherwise I think A6o is slightly too wide 12BB into larger stacks and maybe a few pips too wide exploitatively if they wouldn't tighten up their calling range.

So I ran a couple sims for you in HRC. It looks like shoving A6o loses about $20 in ICM value on average (with the size of the prize pool it's a small mistake).

Interestingly A6o is used as a breakeven open to 2.3bb. Notice though that if you open to 2.3 bb the big stack in the small blind is supposed to shove over 30% of hands! I doubt anyone is shoving that wide in practice. If the other players are playing much tighter than they're supposed to than A6o is likely doing very well as a min-raise.

Thank you very much for your effort. Is there any way that I can view those two images in a larger size?

I just sent you a PM with links to view the screenshots I have saved on my phone. The resolution of the screenshots still isn't great, but it should be better than the compressed version on twoplustwo.

Also just an FYI. If you're using the new twoplustwo interface you can't view your DMs there so you have to log in through the old interface at: forumserver.twoplustwo.com. Not sure why the new site doesn't support DMs.

Thanks you very much.