600$ live JJ 19bbs, 6 left

Shove pre or fold pre rather than min raise.

I agree this should probably be a shove preflop. With these loose players behind you can’t afford to open with this vulnerable hand. Going multi-way is pretty bad here with ICM implications. Shove and hopefully iso the BB or take down the blinds/antes.

Note that you can get called by worse from either covering stack behind you. For example. TT, AQs, AK likely calling. Maybe even looser depending on how bad they are.

Disagree with above posters saying shove pre even against loose passives on the FT since you are too deep. Exception is if there is an incredibly loose bad calling station that will secure your double up. JJ is a monster from the cutoff and you are looking for more than stealing the blinds off your stack depth. Once it's 4 ways to the flop can't really give advice. Tough spot multiway and I haven't solved many multiway spots like this.

Think I just fold, you said he's not a huge bluffer, and him overvaluing his hands is bad here-- he might be betting Qx for value when he shouldn't.

Also, while in theory players should size their bluffs and value bets the same, in practice at these stakes I think people are more likely to shove with their bluffs.

I also like the shove pre with 19 BBs but not a GTO expert.

As played I'm gone by the turn. Everything gets there and no river is really safe besides the Tc. He might be aggressive but it's difficult to put him on worse than a queen after the second bet.

Open larger pre, we are going to be opening tighter range so larger size makes sense, we also want to give bb a worse price to stop and go, would open like 2.6x

Fine with the rest, Flop and turn both pretty meh but seem mandatory vs that size

Fold river

I would fold river. Easy for someone to have a q.

Preflop push or minraise. You can also go a little larger.

You can push some hands. Jj is a little strong to push but ok.

I agree that JJ is too strong to push pre. I can see an argument for raising larger than the minimum given the preflop stickiness of some of the players behind and making it more likely that if BB defends they have to commit on the flop with a hand worse than yours. I dunno what's optimal, though.

Shoving pre is ok. Imo it would be bad with qq+. Sometimes when you bv get 3 callers, you make a lot with an overpair or set. A q is tricky. Be easy to give up if it came ac we high

Interesting to shove pre, in game i was min raising range at 15+bb except maybe small pp’s

Did not expect to get 3 callers obv, i thought sb was gonna fold or squeeze or maybe bb was gonna say “*** it im all in” pretty nightmare scenario with my hand to have 3 callers with one ultra loose player to my left.

River i tanked for awhile and folded, Btn tells me hey buddy good fold i had you and shows me J9 lmao

I do think 2.5x might’ve been better pre with the bb having 6bbs

I will min raise with >15 bb's also though I go for 2.1x.

Given all of the callers I like the flop check.

I would consider folding to the flop bet but given it was the BTN I probably call.

On the turn I probably fold. It looks like Qx. We did improve but if a T comes BTN will mostly fold if we bet.

As played I will always fold on the river here because it seems likely we will lose the hand.

Tough hand because of the way BTN played it.

pre: dont like a min open. at least 3x, open ripping is fine as well, but 3x is best id say.

flop is good

turn i probably just check/ jam... his bets are weak as ****, he's a big stack, loose/aggro, and you have a straight flush draw.... you're probably not too concerned with laddering up one and waiting out the shorty, id presume.... shoving is going to save you from river spots like this. i feel like they're folding to a shove A LOT here...

Riv: as played id probably sigh fold. don't think calling is the worst thing in the world tho

We don't have a flush draw on the turn we only have a gutter.

I don't hate a shove because of the read that while Villain doesn't bluff much he does overvalue his hands so he can be betting with 2nd or 3rd pair here.

If we shove, I prefer the shove on the flop because I think we have more fold equity vs a Qx hand with a bad kicker.

We do have a 1card flush draw, although not loving pushback even if we hit unless its the Tc.

I thought about shoving turn but figured there’s a strong chance that V was overvaluing a 9 and go check/check river or bet 20% pot again. I wasnt expecting him to be bad enough to bet 45% pot with just the 9 though.

I misread the board. I don't mind the turn jam then. But I think I rarely do it. I also just might fold the turn because Villain could have hit a flush or a straight. A lot of draws got there (though we do block JT).

3x is way too large off a 19x stack. Especially at a final table. What is your goal with raise sizes like this?

We block JT and a lot of flushes. Without the Jc, he shouldn't have many preflop calls here - AcTc and KcTc should be it, if those. With a loose fishy player, he might have more Ax suited and maybe some suited connectors, but he also might be betting a lot wider than he should on the turn here (and obviously was, in this case).

discourage 3 callers

While that's a good goal, at least in theory you shouldn't ever really be getting this many callers at the final table. Even if you do, we still flop an overpair or a set about half the time and we're happy to get it in with those.

Even if we adjust for our table opponents playing too loose preflop at a final table, I think 2.5 would be enough to suffice. Or if you think they're really loose, especially with big-card hands (I'm not so concerned with discouraging 87s to call preflop here), then just shove.

i think opening 3bbs, 4 or even 5bb's is fine, gets more in pre vs. a super loose button with position on you... and i like these opening sizes a lot better than open shoving, even tho i acknowledge that ripping JJ is still profitable.

of course, absolutely no problem with 2.5x

JJ is still a premium hand from the CO in an unopened pot. im focused on getting the button to put as many chips in as possible pre flop. unless you are really concerned with laddering, then rip it.

also a lot of this is dependent on hero's open raise size before this hand was played....

(imo)

The problem with opening larger with JJ is that it looks exactly like you have JJ. It just makes it easier to play against.

Some people also do it with AK. Others also do it with TT/QQ. It becomes obvious when they turn their hands over and it limits the 3-bets with worse hands.

The key for me in deciding opening sizing is I will use the same size on every hand I open with at each level so my hand strength will be hidden.

So my choices here are min raising or jamming. I prefer min raising because usually we will play against a blind and do well in position. If we get raised we can jam or if we are jammed on its an easy call. It is very unusual to be called by all 3 remaining players in this spot and at that point unless we hit a set or the board has no A/K/Q we likely won't win the hand.

Agreed.. and at FT's i usually do adjust my raise size from min to 3x or over, depending on stack size... but i am also used to playing on ignition anonymous tables with droolers, not so much live... that's probably wehre most of this discussion about my opening size has generated from

Is it easy though? We don’t have the full stack sizes for all remaining but it looks like we’re in the middle with 20bbs and at least one player very short with 6bbs. Outlasting the shorty is very important. Of course that doesn’t mean we’re looking to fold premiums (like in a satellite for example).

My point is that we are under the most pressure as a middle stack. JJ is a premium but is vulnerable AND the ICM pressure here takes it down a notch or two. These are the reasons I advocated for jamming, especially at a soft daily live FT. These guys are typically loose and passive. When they 3-bet or jam on you they just have it and we’re pretty much hoping for a flip. Not a good result with our chip position and extreme shorties still in.

Open jamming removes this problem of having to call off vs a bigger stack and ideally isolates the BB. He’s going to be calling off quite wide at this stack depth so why not let him?