Best Response to Agro MP Relentlessly Attacking UTG and +1 Open Early Tournament?
Recently encountered a crazy agro player at my live table that would 3bet over 50% of my UTG opens. This was a $300 tournament and the largest monthly at the casino. Rest of the table was the sleepy loose passive fish archetype but there was a strong player directly to my right (so he'd be in BB for most of these spots). I really struggled with the response and unfortunately was near bottom of my UTG open range each time. These all occurred fairly early in the tournament, let's say eff stack was 80bb-100bb for every hand. I don't want to spoil hands but assume for every hand except the first hand he is a KNOWN punter. Some of the 3bets produced at showdown included KTo, 57s, 33, ATo, etc. Sometimes there was a dead money loose passive flatting in front but for most hands it was just RFI into 3bet. Key assumptions on how to craft the response are 1) he is 3betting wildly inappropriate class of hands, 2) he is fairly loose and sticky, 3) he is going to overvalue his hand post flop 4) I only included hands where it folded back around to me as I think these were the most interesting.
First hand I opened AQo 2.5bb he made it 4x 3bet from the HJ and I folded, looking back if I had known his playstyle already I would have 4-bet to like 22bb.
2nd hand I opened 88 2.5bb from UTG+1, he made it something random like 3.5x from CO. I flatted this hand but wonder if I should include in the minclick 4bet?
3rd hand I opened K7s from UTG, LJ flat, he 3bet large squeeze size from HJ, I folded
4th hand I opened KQo from UTG I think 2.5, he 3bet to 7.5 from HJ, I folded. Does this make the cut as a 4bet? as a flat? just knowing he is punting.
5th hand I opened KTs from UTG+1 to 2.5bb, he 3bet from CO to 10bb, I clicked back to 22bb and he called.
As you can see I was near bottom of UTG range almost every time except the first hand where I had AQo and didn't know his playstyle. Another time I had AKo and 4bet and he snap folded so not too interested in that analysis either. I'm talking specifically about the response with "average" or near bottom of range hands vs. this kind of aggression. What are the first hands you normally fold which now make it into the 4bet category? which hands become flats? Would love to hear from some live players about similar experience vs. this type!
12 Replies
Opening K7s UTG seems bad, as does folding AQo to the clickback even without reads.
You need to 4! him or call. If you 4!, I would make it at least 2.5x his 3! size, not a clickback. You need to be ready to play him postflop. You could also tighten your ep open range.
Opening range from utg looks a bit wide but having a raise/fold range is fine.
Sometimes you just have to let the aggro guy be aggro.
Was he 3 betting everyone else at the table?
It depends how he plays against 4bs and how he plays postflop, but generally I would be calling his 3b much wider and 4bing more. You're just going to have to get into tough postflop spots where you're calling down light, but also when you do make top pair he should be paying you off significantly. Now if he knows how to slowdown/play intelligently postflop he's going to be very tough to play against, but if he's truly reckless you probably just want to play a tighter range and print money when you have it.
If he is going to 3! so much, just min open. I wouldn't significantly tighten my range, but you can lop off the worst hands that you know aren't a call vs a 3!, and that don't really play that great multi way.
Why did you want to go to 22BB with AQ? That is a very polar size, when you should be looking to 4! him with a more linear range. Sure, AQ can be tricky to play post, but if it is early and deep, you can't get the SPR low enough to make it worthwhile to size so big. You'll still mostly be playing OOP, so bloating the pot is not in your interest.
Ok, I think I might see why you want to go to 22...his 4x was 4x your raise? So that is 10BB and 22BB is perfectly fine.
As to the question of the first hands you normally fold but now make it to the 4! bluff, you want to have a blocker, and a hand that can easily fold to a 5! Hands like K7s or some of your weaker Ax suited for the position are good candidates.
Opening K7s UTG seems bad, as does folding AQo to the clickback even without reads.
You need to 4! him or call. If you 4!, I would make it at least 2.5x his 3! size, not a clickback. You need to be ready to play him postflop. You could also tighten your ep open range.
I like widening not tightening my range against passive players who don't 3bet enough. But I agree AQo in early tournament stage probably works as a 4bet or call better than fold. Most players when they 4x 3bet vs. UTG range are playing faceup like top 4 hands in poker at least in my experience at these softer tables. But maybe I do just work it into a 4bet range no matter what.
As to the question of the first hands you normally fold but now make it to the 4! bluff, you want to have a blocker, and a hand that can easily fold to a 5! Hands like K7s or some of your weaker Ax suited for the position are good candidates.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Going polar with like A4s (didn't get a weaker Ax spot to open then 4!) and probably should have 4! KQo looking back.
It depends how he plays against 4bs and how he plays postflop, but generally I would be calling his 3b much wider and 4bing more. You're just going to have to get into tough postflop spots where you're calling down light, but also when you do make top pair he should be paying you off significantly. Now if he knows how to slowdown/play intelligently postflop he's going to be very tough to play against, but if he's truly reckless you probably just want to play a tighter range and print money when
I don't even think slowdown was in his vocabulary 😀
You can tighten up your RFI range slightly (but if the rest of the table is passive maybe keep it about the same). Then widen your 4-bet range slightly.
I like AQo as a 4-bet against this player like you said. I would typically flat 88 and KQo against this player. I don't think KQo works well as a 4-bet. You just fold out hands you dominate and isolate yourself OOP against hands that dominate you.
I think the KTs hand is a fine 4-bet if you expect him to 3-bet fold some dominating hands like KJo and KQo but if he's really sticky it might play better as a flat.
K7s isn't even an open at equilibrium and I would sooner drop it from my UTG range entirely. I think it's just too weak of a hand to be 4-betting with this combo UTG unless you really just think he will massively overfold to the 4-bet.
You can tighten up your RFI range slightly (but if the rest of the table is passive maybe keep it about the same). Then widen your 4-bet range slightly.
I like AQo as a 4-bet against this player like you said. I would typically flat 88 and KQo against this player. I don't think KQo works well as a 4-bet. You just fold out hands you dominate and isolate yourself OOP against hands that dominate you.
I think the KTs hand is a fine 4-bet if you expect him to 3-bet fold some dominating hands like KJo
Pretty much summarizes my thoughts. Good writeup! I do tend to play more exploitatively early tournament but try to keep it to post flop exploits except for the occasional K6 and K7s. They never see it coming!
Pretty much summarizes my thoughts. Good writeup! I do tend to play more exploitatively early tournament but try to keep it to post flop exploits except for the occasional K6 and K7s. They never see it coming!
Thanks! I previously neglected my preflop game as it is not the most interesting thing to study, but I've been trying to put some work into it as it's very important to our bottom line.
Like you I also focus more on exploits post flop. I once heard a pro describe pre flop and flop play as like "setting the table."
I like that comparison. It's a lot easier to play the turn and river well if you arrive there with the right combos like the table is set correctly. If you arrive at the turn with a combo you shouldn't have in that node then all of a sudden it's often like WTF am I supposed to do with this hand now? So many tough turn and river spots are just mistakes preflop or on the flop that lead to us having combos we shouldn't even have in certain turn and river nodes.
I get pretty out of line with turn and river exploits, but I try to limit my preflop exploits to just adjusting a pip or so. On the flop I might range bet small in some spots you theoretically shouldn't if I think my opponent will overfold. But I typically try not to get too out of line.
