Gettin' donked on

No idea how you play your range preflop here, so I'll make an assumption it's roughly in the ballpark of 66+, A9s+, ATo+, KTs+, KJo+, QTs+, JTs. That equates to 170 combos preflop which reduces to 160 on this particular flop texture (T52tt).

As we really have no idea what your opponent is doing with this particular donk sizing, we can just look after our own range. This is a pretty horrific betsize when we are 4-ways to the flop so we don't actually need to defend that wide at all.

MDF (minimum defence frequency) = (pot size / (pot size + bet size))
pot size = 4560
bet size = 3420

MDF = 4560 / (4560+3420) = 4560/7980 = 57.14%

As a simplification, we are multiway here so might require splitting this between the 3 remaining players so we need to defend roughly 19% of our range on the flop versus this betsize. This works out at about 30 combos (160*0.19). Given each overpair we have in our range is 6 combos, we already have almost that with just sets (TT, 3 combos) and overpairs (JJ+, 24 combos). Given AT adds another 12 combos into the mix, you might not even need to defend all your TPTK although it's probably fine to do so here.

This is how I'd try and work through this spot, although have made some assumptions and simplifications. There might also be other things to consider; for instance, because it's a bounty, it might depend on who covers whom for some bounty overlay and implied odds for hitting a draw.

So if I understand this correctly, you're suggesting QT is probably at the bottom of my defending range on the flop? Which would suggest the turn is probably an easy fold?

I probably would just call on the BTN with QTs after two limps (I like raising on LJ/HJ/CO to buy the BTN). But I don't mind the raise and I like the sizing.

In general when people donk on the flop after calling a pre-flop raise it typically means they hit the flop with a single pair or they are on a draw or both. But the bet sizing is rarely over half the pot. Also because there are 4 players it is possible MP is donking because he doesn't want it to check through.

In this case I imagine it is a Tx hand or maybe a flush draw with like A2s/K2s and I doubt MP would have limped in with AT and probably not with KT. So on the flop I probably jam here. If MP has a set then so be it but I think they would have c/r'd.

As played on the turn I would fold. We now lose to JT and the bet sizing is 50% effective stack so its going all in on the river.

I'd say it was a pretty easy flop fold tbh

Normally I would have just called too, but I tend to become overly passive when I'm running bad so I decided to up the aggression. Also trying to build a pot because accumulating chips is really important in the early stages of a PKO.

I don't think you're giving enough consideration to the fact that this is multiway, which significantly strengthens villain's donking range. I agree he's likely not limping AT but possibly KTs and definitely a hand like JTs. However, 22/55 are definitely in his limp/calling range and are the kinds of hands he might donkbet multiway on a flushed flop that doesn't nail my range. The sizing also looks strong to me. In my experience, when players donkbet flush draws in spots like this they usually do it small.

One tip unrelated to the specifics of the hand. You've really got to evaluate limps on a case by case basis.

Against one player that MP limp might mean they're extremely capped with a bunch of garbage hands, in which case your iso raise pre is great.

On the other hand another player might limp with something resembling an RFI range, planning to reraise with their biggest hands and call with hands that dominate you like KTs and ATs. Against this type you're better off just limping behind to try to make a big hand like a straight or flush, and steal smaller pots as appropriate.

I used to iso raise limpers indiscrimately and it can be lighting money on fire against the wrong player type.

Maybe take some time off for RandR?

Not easy. Exploitive.

Yes.

What are we exploiting?

I don't see that kind of play happening much at this stack depth, but I agree limps can mean very different things in different circumstances.

I'm a recreational player so I basically place once/week as is. When I'm running bad I'll take more time during the week between sessions to review hands.

You don't see which type of play? The limps with strong hands? In that case I would lean towards the following:

My take is kind of the opposite from the crowd advocating a flop fold. I would actually lean towards exploitatively calling turn. That's knowing the tendencies of the games I play, which is mainly around $500 avg buy in live tournaments. I'm sure the games you're playing online play differently, and I'm not as dialed in to the current tendencies of the players in those games so YMMV.

A good player is really never taking villain's line. If a good player was betting into multiple players like this it would suggest a strong hand/range.

But without other reads, limp call pre, donk flop, bet turn (at half pot sizing) suggests a weak player and a relatively weak range. On the flop I would put him on something like flush draws, 34s, lots of Tx but leaning towards weaker Tx given the limp call line, some PPs lower than 10s (including 22 and 55 sets), limited combos of 5x and 2x, and random bluffs that just think that flop likely missed everyone.

To me the flop is a pretty clear call for us.

The turn actually shouldn't improve that many of our opponents' hands. Also I would expect a larger bet with a lot of the strongest hands given the increasingly draw-heavy board. Yeah JT is beating us now and some Jx flush draws now have us crushed, but there are plenty of hands we're still ahead of.

With the pot odds we're being given we only need to win about 1 in 4 times when we call turn. Yeah it sucks that there's still another player left to act, but I would expect the other player to fold and the aggressor to give up on the river close to 25% of the time. I think the turn call is close to break even if we never call river, and I think there will be profitable bluff catching opportunities on some river cards where a call would be justified.

That's my take. I would guess that in theory we should probably call flop fold turn given the multi way dynamics? But I actually lean towards calling turn and evaluating various rivers.

Also, MDF really isn't very relevant to this spot. MDF is calculating what we need to call with to prevent opponent from bluffing with 0 equity, but even total trash hands will have some amount of equity on this board. We actually need to be defending quite a bit more than MDF would suggest.

Had a quick run through solver to see where our base point should be. Preflop range is slightly wider as I only gave us the option of isolating, rather than being able to limp behind. I doubt this is a size that solver would ever use for villain (I only gave check or this 75% betsize for them). We would defend our range something like the screenshot. We can go slightly wider than I initially suggested as the solver is mainly adding in flush draws into the mix, although the made hands are definitely around the suggested strength I posted initially (sets, overpairs; AT being indifferent).

If we have a read on villain, then we can potentially go down the exploitative route, but we would need to know that villain is donking this 75% betsize with a weak range. In my experience, when weak players donkbet large, they are showing a lot of strength and generally have it more often than not. I did run this in chipEV with no bounty considerations, but it looks as though we only cover the CO who has already folded to the donk.

I have donated my fair share of stacks with mediocre top pairs in multiway spots when deep in the past, but I generally try to avoid doing that these days.

What's the range you used for villain's limp call pre donk flop range? Our response strategy is going to be a function of their strategy (along with the strategies of the other players). Sure if we're giving them some sort of rational solver strategy then we should respond very tightly. But the chances of them doing something akin to a solver after they limp, call 5x and donk 3/4 pot are nill. That's not something a solver would ever do.

This is sort of the point I was getting at with my first point about evaluating limpers on a case by case basis.

I'll put it this way. If their range is strong enough that we're supposed to fold top pair to one 3/4 pot bet then the iso raise preflop was likely a mistake.

Sorry, I realized I didn't respond to your earlier question. I don't see people limping big hands at this stack depth in these games.

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning in your last statement. I raised QTs there partly because it can flop so well, but T52 two-tone with none of my suit is definitely near the bottom in terms of flop value. I have a lot more information on the flop that changes how much I like my hand: a marginal flop and facing a large donkbet in a multiway pot. As Corpsey said, the size of the donkbet is quite informative in this spot. If villain had thrown out a 25% bet instead, I would put more weak hands in his range. I called the flop because I wasn't convinced, but then villain followed it with a half pot bullet after both his opponents called his 75% flop bet.

It might be easier to visualize if you put your opponent on a range of hands.

One of the key questions I would be asking myself when considering the preflop raise is what range I will be up against when he calls and we go to a flop? Will our QTs dominate most of his Qx and Tx combos or will we be dominated a lot? If we're going to be dominated a lot then we probably don't want to put ourself in that position.

To me that would be the reason I could see for considering a fold on the flop, was if I expected our opponent to have a lot of better Tx like AT, KT and few if any worse Tx. He shouldn't ever really have overpairs the way he played his hand. Two pair hands are unlikely on that board. Sure he could have a set of 2s or 5s but that's only 3 combos of each so a total of 6 set combos, making a set relatively unlikely.

T52 two tone is actually one of the better flops for our hand.

With QTs We're only going to flop any pair 1/3 of the time and a lot of times it will be something like 2nd pair not top pair. We'll only flop a flush draw around 10% of the time and an OESD less than 10% of the time.

Our equity on T52 is probably in like the top 20% of flops for our hand, maybe the top 10% of flops (obviously this also depends on the ranges we put our opponents on). Regardless there will be so many flops when we have QTs where we totally brick or we have something like a gutshot or middle pair.

So it stands to reason that if we're considering folding to one bet on a flop that is one of the better flops for our hand then maybe it's just not a profitable spot to be in?

I'm not saying that's necessarily the case. If our opponent is playing a lot of garbage Tx like T9, T8, T7 then the preflop raise could make a lot of sense, but if that's the case then I think we should be calling the flop bet.

Anyway for the record I think the way you played your hand postflop seems pretty standard. Calling flop with top pair and then folding turn after the other player also calls the flop bet and an over card hits seems reasonable.

I'm just advocating for really thinking through our opponents' ranges before we take an action and not just doing stuff by default. That's because this spot is ultimately opponent-dependent.

I see your point, makes sense. I admit I didn't really think in terms of how my hand is going to stack up against his calling range. I just thought, "Hand can flop really well, good opportunity to build a pot."

So while I do get overly passive when I'm running bad, it seems like I overcompensated in this spot with unwarranted aggression.

Anything that beats us.