ICM?
I feel that Iβve developed a strength with βcashβ games and speak with authority which has pissed off some of the old folks here.
But tournaments have always been my favorite and I still have a lot to learn in this arena. So many positives as I will show up rested and I am probably healthier than anyone playing. My confidence is strong, Iβve got experience, Hendon mob cashes but I need to play better in the late stages.
Nowhere else do you have to change gears more often than tournaments - from tight play to ultra aggressive back and forth. ICM becomes a factor later in a tournament when it counts and Iβm certain Iβve screwed it up too many times. Itβs hard for me to fold JJ when that becomes the best play.
Iβm not much for rote memorization. I need to fully understand the underlying reasons for what I do. Iβm never interested in cashing, my only goal is reaching the final table.
Iβm hesitant to invest much in learning with so much free information available, but Iβm asking - what have you found as helpful material in applying ICM at the right times?
9 Replies
Since ICM takes your total ROI into account* you might find that it sometimes interfers with your goals and style of play. Your total ROI is definately affected even by your mincashes. Therefore the smaller your stack the more incentivized you are to play tight when you're approaching the bubble. Definately folding pocket jacks sometimes. The bigger the field, the more true this is. Because if 500 players cash and you double up your 7bb-stack when avg stack is 25bb you most likely won't come anywhere near the final table anyway. On average it will yield you one or two small pay jumps, and that will not compensate you for the $-loss the times you are knocked out.
* In the sense it always calculates your share of the prizepool at any given moment
I think it's hard to gain from ICM studies without at least some kind of rote memorization. And I'm note sure the free stuff will be enough for you. ATM I use GTOWizards ICM-module, but not the Elite level so I can't nodelock f.e. My experiences from doing this in HRC (I don't pay for it anymore) though is that at least according to HRC your pushing and calling ranges aren't that dramatically affected by your opponent pushing or calling wider or tighter than equilibrium.
Here's an ICM quiz for you:
You are Wasnock, at the FT. There are 2 very short stacks and you have 40BBs. Grinder tells you he is shoving any 2. What is your calling range?
I feel that I’ve developed a strength with ‘cash’ games and speak with authority which has pissed off some of the old folks here.But tournaments have always been my favorite and I still have a lot to learn in this arena. So many positives as I will show up rested and I am probably healthier than anyone playing. My confidence is strong, I’ve got experien
"I'm never interested in cashing, my only goal is reaching the final table", is a bad mindset that will always keep your overall results back.
Sure, we all want to reach the FT and eventually win once we start to reg a tourney, but that's not how it works.
Missing ITM-finishes is actually one of the biggest leaks I personally see in many tourney players.
To really study ICM yourself, your best bet is a GTOWiz subscription. Personally though, this depends on the stakes you play. GTOWiz in all its calculations will always assume everyone plays perfect. This never happens unless you play stakes up in the high end (which probably isn't the case making this post). Thus, the ICM-Calculations there are probably widely away from reality of what you should do. Posting specific examples on here may help you.
ICM can just vary so much that typing a general advise here would take hours (and yet it wouldn't be good)
I think you misunderstood me slightly. I was trying to have a realistic reachable goal of being in the top ten, rather than a focus on an unlikely win.
I hear you in so many ways, cashing is good but some people get into the habit of blinding down barely making the money or just missing it. Thatβs not the way to play.
I know it was a tough request. I want a simple formula and ICM is far from simple. Obviously you know ICM, is there a way to know when it kicks in? I pay no attention to it and play
Iβm not worried about chops or payouts, Iβm asking when do I begin to deviate from play and maybe fold a good hand?
Again, it may be an impossible question, but I would appreciate any thoughts or pointers.
I would recommend reading Endgame Poker Strategy: The ICM Book by Dara O'Kearney and Barry Carter. You can thank me later.
As for your other questions. ICM starts to have effects when only like 1/2 of the field has been eliminated.
On a practical level as a shorter stack you want to start tightening up slightly when like 1/3 of the field is remaining, then steadily tighten up more and more until the bubble breaks. Then you loosen up some and start tightening up again as the final table bubble approaches.
As the final table continues the ICM effects are reduced as players are eliminated. ICM effects on the final table are biggest at the start of the final table and reduce until you're heads up. Heads up ICM is no longer a thing as you're just playing for the difference between 2nd and 1st.
As a big stack basically the opposite is true. When the short stacks have to tighten up you can generally loosen up and run them over to an extent. The exception is facing all-ins even the big stacks have to play tighter, but not to the same extent as short stacks.
Seriously though read that book. I don't think I've ever gotten a better ROI from 15 bucks.
Here's an ICM quiz for you:
You are Wasnock, at the FT. There are 2 very short stacks and you have 40BBs. Grinder tells you he is shoving any 2. What is your calling range?
Answering myself, he'd have need TT+ only to call. Even AKs is a fold.
That gives you one of the biggest clues about ICM at the FT. When there are short stacks, medium stacks get tortured by big stacks.
Answering myself, he'd have need TT+ only to call. Even AKs is a fold.
That gives you one of the biggest clues about ICM at the FT. When there are short stacks, medium stacks get tortured by big stacks.
Nice, you ran the numbers? I was curious myself, particularly if AKs would be in there (although AKs isn't even as good as 88 against ATC, so if it's TT+ it's obviously not good enough). What was the equity breakeven point?
I would recommend reading Endgame Poker Strategy: The ICM Book by Dara O'Kearney and Barry Carter. You can thank me later.
Yeah, that's good advice.
To keep ICM simple as a concept without getting into the nitty-gritty: Because of how tournament payouts work, the further into a tournament you go, the further the cash EV of your decisions deviates from the chip EV. (More or less-- there are times when it peaks, like around the money bubble and FT bubble.) The value of staying in the tournament, and the value of the chips you have, becomes more paramount, and so you adjust your ranges and lines to leverage fold equity more often and to not put chips at risk unnecessarily.
A simple example would be, in a cash game, assuming you're bankrolled properly, you'd be happy getting all-in preflop with QQ vs. AKs all day every day. Early in a tournament, you'd be happy with that, too. But if there are 12 left and you're second in chips, getting all-in with QQ vs. the chip leader's AKs is lighting money on fire.
(You'll often see in these spots that QQ is generally just a flat to a covering stack's open when you're under that kind of ICM pressure; 3-betting ranges end up looking like KK+ / AK / some Ax and Kx hands for bluffs.)
Thank you, really great replies & a lot of questions answered. Will definitely check out endgame poker strategy. If I go deep in the seniors August 10th, I will be sure to give you credit. Thanks
Nice, you ran the numbers? I was curious myself, particularly if AKs would be in there (although AKs isn't even as good as 88 against ATC, so if it's TT+ it's obviously not good enough). What was the equity breakeven point?Yeah, that's good advice.To keep ICM simple as a concept without getting into the nitty-gritty: Because of how tournament payouts work, the further into a to
Waz would have needed about 74% to call. He would have been risking 2.92 to win 1.01.
That, my friend, is ICM.